The case for Treble hooks.

[luckyjim]

its trebles all the way for me.

i make no apologies for it, nor do i need to look at other methods, because twenty years of pike fishiung with live and deadbaits has proved time and time again that its the safest and most practical way to fish.

invariably those that make ill informed stupid comments as regards grenades and spear guns are those that do not pike fish regularly, and know little of the mechanics of pike feeding.

 

Hey, I wasn't arguing against using trebles full stop - I have done a bit of piking and usually used a size 8 semi-barbed treble. What I can't understand is using two trebles, this seems excessive to me and is surely going to cause more problems with unhooking than its worth. Also I've caught a pike in the Thames before that had some other fellow's end tackle still attached - he'd evidently snapped the line during the fight. It was one of those two hook treble traces, he'd swallowed one of them right down into his stomach and the other had slid up the wire (but not come off because of the swivel) and embedded itself pretty securely about 5mm below his eye. The wire had cut a groove into his upper jaw! Luckily my (single treble) was in the scissors so I could remove that easily, and (with the help of my brother) we managed to retract the stomach as described on the PAC website and get the hook out. It looked in pretty bad shape, but hopefully it survived.

 

You're right I don't know much about the mechanics of pike feeding (beyond the basics), as I pointed out I don't have the level of experience of you chaps but was just offering my opinion.

 

p.s. Also Budgie I don't understand the reason why you'd have to compensate for not using a treble by using usch a large single? Surely if its able to hold the bait with the hookpoint exposed and doesn't snap or bend once you hook the fish its perfectly sufficient (like a size 6 or 4)? Never tried it (other than in the sea where you need less fussy gear anyway) so I wouldn't know. I agree though a large single is definately going to cause more damage than a single small treble.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks for that Richard, youve raised some good points.I will try and answer them.

 

The main reason behind using more than one treble hook is once again down to the size of baits commonly used. The thinking being that no matter where the pike picks up the bait one set of hooks will always be in the mouth allowing for an instant strike.

 

The point you make about due to the nature of the material (wire) used for the trace it is enevitably stronger than the main line being used.In the result of the main line breaking an extremely dangerous "armed" so to speak bait would be left in the water. A worrying scenario that responsible pikers have always been aware of.Pikers have allways used tackle that is far stronger than the fighting qualitys of our prey really need much for the reason of saftey.These days most use braided lines which are in excess of the wire traces breaking strain.However regardless of mono or braid the way we have got around this problem is to always ensure that with a direct pull we can straighten out the hooks before the line breaks.

 

Similar to this point.You may have noticed how I and many other pike anglers resent this "safe rig" mentality which the carp boys are trying to push on all of angling? Their idea of safe is one where nothing is "fixed" to the line and in the event of a break the carp is left with "only" a hook,hook length and swivel in its mouth.This definition of "safe" aint no good to us as we use trebles! the only "safe" rig for us is one that enables us to land the fish and safely remove the hooks.

 

I to have seen all three points of a treble once its come out of a bait "locked" into a pikes mouth but if you are using semi barbless trebles,are confident in your handling and unhooking simply inverting them releases the flesh quickly and without further/any damage.

 

There surely cant be a pike angler though who doesnt agree that a set of barbed treble hooks used incorectly can cause terrible damage....but then cant the same be said for any item of tackle/technique that is used incorectly.

 

I have always said that if some one doesnt like some thing then fine they dont have to use it.I will of course try to put over my point of veiw.I dont like it if some one critisises the use of something they dont understand and dislike even more if they try to get it banned purely on their personal veiw. However these days we have an even worse scenario at that is people advocating something far more harmfull as being not only the "right" thing to do but 2better"

 

Please note Richard that wasnt meant as a dig at you for sugesting the singles.

 

I think you summed it up well when you said that they may not be perfect but nothing better has come along.Lets keep looking for improvement by all means but lets stop reviving old tried and rejected solutions as the "new" way ahead.

 

Incidently I agree with (was it Peter?) I too have found doubles can be harder to invert to remove.

[greg long]

while I usually use two trebles while dead-baiting (mainly to allow an immediate strike) I often switch to a single hook with no trace when I am getting a lot of twitches and bait drops. (We don't use live baits over here so I only can speak for dead baits) This allows me to hook most fish in the scissors thus not needing a wire trace. The only disadvantage of this method is the fact that only small dead baits can be used and short casts made. I often fire a dead bait 40-50 yards at one venue I fish, this can't be done without trebles and a tied on bait.

[Dick Dastardly]

I just couldnt condone the use of fish baits without a wire trace full stop.I know what you are saying about hooking up in the scissors Greg therefore not needing one but I just cant see how you could garuntee them not taking the bait (and therefore the hook) in deeper.

[Dave Lumb]

The more posts I read about how we should be trying to do less damage to fish, the more I fear for the future of angling.

 

I don't know about those of you who go fishing to be nice to fish, but I go to fishing to catch as many as I can by legal means.

 

What I do doesn't kill pike - that includes using two barbed treble hooks, and lures with size 5/0 barbed trebles on them.

 

That's good enough for me in the fish welfare stakes.

 

Maybe that kind of tackle could do untold harm to pike in other people's hands but that's no reason to stop those who can use it safely from doing so.

[Russell Fitzpatrick]

i have used singles and trebles,

 

i have used singles from size 4-1/0 in summer when after zander,i have had a good few pike on them,without any problems,i switched to singles on the river after failing to connect and hook up( zed prob not pike hooked all them ok),it worked, but in the fens when after zeds i have used trebles not yet tried singles up there.

 

the reason i use two trebels is it gives me confidence,i use big deads and big lives and i dont want to mess around with singles. they really dont work very well with big baits.

jardine got it right many moons ago.

as for wire marking fish,well this is one reason i use carboflex coated wire,its smoother than uncoated so if it does rub during a fight etc it shouldnt mark teh pike,saying this i havent had one marked by uncoated tho. i have however caught a mid double on teh river several times it has a nasty(healed) scar under its gill cover,i presume this is from thin,uncoated wire.

 

no matter whether i use singles or trebles i strike fast,i never leave it.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Russell Fitzpatrick

[luckyjim]

The more posts I read about how we should be trying to do less damage to fish, the more I fear for the future of angling.

 

The logic I follow is:

Less damage done to fish = more fish survive and breed = better the future of angling!

 

Also as Richard Capper pointed out its not just about the fish, but wildlife. I would also add humans, i.e. other water users.

[Dave Lumb]

The logic I follow is:

 

Anglers admitting doing harm to fish = a good reason to ban angling.

[Kappa]

I think you summed it up well when you said that they may not be perfect but nothing better has come along.Lets keep looking for improvement by all means but lets stop reviving old tried and rejected solutions as the "new" way ahead.

Budgie:

Agreed, I think you make convincing argument about extra large singles. I'm afraid I can't really come with you on the trebles but i know there those such as yourself that go to extra lengths to ensure the risk is absolutely minimised.

 

Dave Lumb:

You know angling can cause harm to fish (especially when anything but the utmost care is taken), I know it and so does just about every non-angler. Either you can live with that or you can't.

 

Everyone else:

Its not for me to say what people should or should not use I can only voice my opinions.

*edit* I think this issue has run its course, its late and I don't want to have an arguement so lets just agree to disagree. *edit*

 

Rich

Edited October 30, 2006 by Richard Capper

[greg long]

I just couldnt condone the use of fish baits without a wire trace full stop.I know what you are saying about hooking up in the scissors Greg therefore not needing one but I just cant see how you could garuntee them not taking the bait (and therefore the hook) in deeper.

 

No more than guaranteeing the trebles won't be all the way down the throat....but if the float is set correctly you will see the bite and can strike immediately...as I said small deadbaits... the reason for using no trace is to stop the deadbaits being immediately dropped. We have a large lake near Dublin that is heavily fished in areas and sometimes you find the pike very hook & trace shy, therefor the trace causes dropped baits. Not all pike are stupid! . As for singles and no trace, the amount of pike I have caught on trout flies with no problems shows me that the loss of fish due to no trace on singles is about 2%, and mostly due to light line breaking....(large doubles and 4lb bs don't usually mix) This in comparison to the possibilities of deep hooked fish on trebles seems to me a fair option, but with a sensible tightening up immediately the hooks should hit the scissors 95% of the time. Also a single hook can be shed or digested quite easily from the stomach...I should mention that the singles are usually 6 or 4's, (and rarely 2's if the baits are very soft).

Compare this to the likelyhood of rusted traces, kinked trace wire and the slipping crimps that are quite common (judging by the amount of fish I've seen lost this way) sensible anglers can even lose pike through crimp and trace failure too. Aside from that I don't ask that you "condone" my methods, I have caught and released pike for over 28 years, fought the fishery boards on the old (now thankfully stopped) 'Pike culling' on the trout loughs, and campaigned for the protection of our Pike- under law anglers can now only kill one fish of under 6lb, due to the amount being killed by visiting continental anglers, and certainly don't need permission or condoning for my methods. I use no trace when it is needed to aviod fish dropping my bait, not as a rule, and I use singles with no trace to catch fish....not lose them. If it was an unreliable method I wouldn't be using it.