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No More Trebles


Leon Roskilly

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Can't see why wire traces are still used when you go piking. For the conger and ling, with particular sharp teeth, we use thicker mono. Don't hear of fish biting through it. When it gets a bit frayed, just replace it.

 

Basicly Barry your right Pike wont/cant bite through 100lb hard mono like used for conger,tope etc.They have trouble with 50lb mono.I know as many years ago I tried it for pike traces....and being a bit slow it took me trying it to realise why we still use wire! Wire is simply thinner,more supple and easier to make traces with than heavy mono! Easy as that mate

And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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Well despite having played with circles for several seasons now Im afraid my jury is still out on using them for pike.I havnt found any problems (harm /damage wise) with them unlike big normal singles which I feel should be banned for pike (by big I mean anything much bigger than a size 1).

 

Are they more effective/just as effective at hooking as trebles? well it seems to be down to the bait and rig to be honest.

 

I cant see myself ever changing over full stop but Im still in two minds about wether they would be better for beginers/unexperienced pikers. In two minds because I still think trebles are best BUT only if used properly.Circles are certainly less likely to cause damage in the hands of the beginer/unexperienced but you still have to be able to handle a pike correctly no matter what the hook pattern and I feel its this inability which is the real problem.

 

I do wince a bit every time this subject comes up though.Reason being is that most people look towards hook paterns other than trebles simply because they have problems unhooking fish caught on trebles.I would rather see them learn how to use the (IMO) correct equipment rather than just look for an "easy" answer. My main worry though is that many dont understand the fundemental difference between using a 6/0 circle and a 6/0 standard single.The big difference (fish welfare wise) is the depth of penetration of both types of hook.No problems with a circle pattern but a stand patten single of this size can be a killer.

 

As for Perch allthough the results have been a lot more promising Im still not 100% decided either.Hope to finally decide on this one over the next couple of seasons though.

 

Eels well despite the hundreds Ive caught this year Ive still not got round to actually tageting them on purpose so cant comment.

 

Carp and Cats they work great for but I see no reason to change as Ive never really experienced problems with either of these species with standard hooks.

 

 

If there was a way to applaud on thi forum Budgie then this would get a standing ovation Budgie ;)

 

Some of the replies and ideas on this thread have made me wince, particularly the idea of big singles of circles/ bananas or whatever bloody shape they are.

 

I think the idea that because one or two change to circles all the beginners will do is unbelieveably naieve. As Budgie says its a cop out for not handling fish correctly <_<

Mark Barrett

 

buy the PAC30 book at www.pacshop.co.uk

 

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Went for another session today, same Venue, the River Rother at Newenden (KAPS water).

 

(Heeding Newt's take I'd flattened the barbs on the circles)

 

This time, because I have a couple of friends who intend fishing there on Saturday, one of whom can't walk far, I moved downriver, past the first bend (leaving the fishing 'fresh' in the vicinity of the car park).

 

Arriving around 1:30.

 

The intention this session was to see what difference it would make tackling runs as soon as possible.

 

After around 30 biteless minutes of float fishing the margin, I thought I would try some sink and draw, and lifted one of the rods only to feel resistance (Was this as instant as you could get? Did the pike grab the bait as it moved? Or was it one of those crafty pike who swallow the bait in situ giving no bite indication?).

 

Anyway, shortly afterwards a game jack of around 4lb was banked, neatly hooked in the scissors. A quick photo and it slipped back into the water.

 

It was then that I noticed the float on the other rod had disppeared, and the bite alarm had failed to go off (caught on vegetation?). Lifting the rod, I found the fish had moved quite a way upstream.

 

So much for my intention of dealing with takes quickly.

 

As I played the fish back downriver towards me, I could feel that this was a much larger fish.

 

I managed to get it in front of me, and when I was still debating whether to net it, or chin it in the margins, suddenly it was gone.

 

The hook came back empty :(

 

But the circumstances would have resulted in a deep hooking, if I hadn't been using circles, I'm sure of that.

 

Then my sink and draw resulted in a take. :)

 

Which also came off :(

 

Dropped the bait back in and twitched it, and it was taken again. :)

 

It came off again :(

 

Tried again and it took again :)

 

Then it came off again :(

 

This time it swam away with the sprat.

 

No more takes in that swim, so I moved further downriver.

 

 

Well it all gets a bit hazy then, lots of takes, lots of fish banked (7 or 8 - I lost count), but also fish coming off and dropped runs, more than I was happy with. I had action in all but one of the swims I visited.

 

The two largest fish landed and weighed were 18lbs and 21lbs.

 

Smaller fish were chined and unhooked in the margins.

 

Although I've had dropped runs and had fish come adrift fishing this venue before, I think that the number of lost fish were greater than normal, but whether that was due to using crushed barb circles I don't know.

 

All fish landed or chinned were hooked in the scissors and unhooking was a doddle.

 

Oh! I did have one other disaster.

 

A fish around 13lb that I was bringing towards me in the margins, the circle neatly in the scissors, suddenly twisted as I was holding the line above the swivel, and the Drennan 48 strand wire trace parted, allowing the fish to escape wearing it's new punk jewellery.

 

I doubt that the circle in its scissors is going to cause it any harm, unlike the same situation if it had a snap tackle with a couple of trebles stuck down its throat.

 

I must say this has never previously happened to me, and I don't know why the wire went so easily.

 

The first 3 or 4 circle traces I'd made up with 48 strand, though I've since bought some woven titanium wire (expensive at £10 for 5 metres but less likely to kink than cheaper wire, thinner too).

 

 

Oh! and whilst twitching a float fished bait towards me, it went under of it's own accord.

 

I tightened down, but the hook didn't engage.

 

I put in back out to the same place, lifted it, and a 2lb jack swirled at the surface, so I dropped it down, and the float moved off again.

 

I could feel the fish drop the bait as it felt resistance, and then started a little game, the jack repeatedly taking the bait, droppping it when it felt resistance, and failing to take the bait fully into its mouth.

 

It eventually won the game and escaped with its well-earned sprat :)

 

I'm left wondering whether many of the missed takes and dropped runs were the reult of these small fish, I've experienced that often here when using trebles.

 

So, summing up, not a bad day for fish banked.

 

Disappointed in the number of missed opportunities, but it kinda added to the fun.

 

I did think about whether I'd go back to trebles, but every fish I did get to the bank was so easily unhooked, that the thought of probing around with forceps, trying to get both sets of trebles out, maybe using the side-cutters or dealing with deep-hooked fish, simply doesn't appeal now.

 

I know what Mark and Budgie are saying. Trebles and snap tackles when used by people who know what they are doing aren't really a problem, and it would be excellent if everyone could be properly educated.

 

But just as universal adoption of circles by newcomers is unlikely any time soon, so proper education of the majority of those now turning to pike-fishing is equally unlikely, and pike stocks continue to suffer because of that.

 

But there does seem to be a choice that more should become aware of.

Edited by Leon Roskilly

RNLI Shoreline Member

Member of the Angling Trust

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Basicly Barry your right Pike wont/cant bite through 100lb hard mono like used for conger,tope etc.They have trouble with 50lb mono.I know as many years ago I tried it for pike traces....and being a bit slow it took me trying it to realise why we still use wire! Wire is simply thinner,more supple and easier to make traces with than heavy mono! Easy as that mate

 

Thanks for that BUDGIE. I use 200-250 for the conger but with ling i'm using at present a very soft and supple 100. If you was to use crimps, it makes trace making a doddle and enables the hook and swivel to be free moving.

Free to choose apart from the ones where the trust poked their nose in. Common eel. tope. Bass and sea bream. All restricted.


New for 2016 TAT are the main instigators for the demise of the u k bass charter boat industry, where they went screaming off to parliament and for the first time assisting so called angling gurus set up bass take bans with the e u using rubbish exaggerated info collected by ices from anglers, they must be very proud.

Upgrade, the door has been closed with regards to anglers being linked to the e u superstate and the failed c f p. So TAT will no longer need to pay monies to the EAA anymore as that org is no longer relevant to the u k . Goodbye to the europeon anglers alliance and pathetic restrictions from the e u.

Angling is better than politics, ban politics from angling.

Consumer of bass. where is the evidence that the u k bass stock need angling trust protection. Why won't you work with your peers instead of castigating them. They have the answer.

Recipie's for mullet stew more than welcomed.

Angling sanitation trust and kent and sussex sea anglers org delete's and blocks rsa's alternative opinion on their face book site. Although they claim to rep all.

new for 2014. where is the evidence that the south coast bream stock need the angling trust? Your campaign has no evidence. Why won't you work with your peers, the inshore under tens? As opposed to alienating them? Angling trust failed big time re bait digging, even fish legal attempted to intervene and failed, all for what, nothing.

Looks like the sea angling reps have been coerced by the ifca's to compose sea angling strategy's that the ifca's at some stage will look at drafting into legislation to manage the rsa, because they like wasting tax payers money. That's without asking the rsa btw. You know who you are..

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I don't care a jot how thick and hard mono is or could be. I've got solid plastic and epoxy coated jerkbaits and lures in the house, with HUGE slices in them, created by pike teeth. You might think I'm wrong but I'm absolutely certain mono is nowhere near as tough or durable as some of these lures are and if they're suffering, mono will too and no doubt it would fail when it's most needed. I just cannot believe that there even discussions on the matter. Mono for traces??? No thanks. I'm sticking to wire.

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Budgie, the use and recommendation of circle hooks is no way a cop out for poor fish handling. Whilst I am always happy to learn I am confident that my fish handling is as competent as most pikers. Whilst I do have control over my rigs I do not have control over how a pike takes my bait. I agree entirely with Leon's opinion and findings on this one .

 

It would be good if a body, such as the PAC, were to conduct or sponsor research on this issue, after all conservation is within their remit. Too many pikers suffer from tunnel vision when it comes to the issue of hooks, in my opinion. This is an area that is long overdue for research. I think that the same might be said one or two pike fishing practices that might be fine in the hands of experts, but questionable in the hands of the less able.

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Budgie, the use and recommendation of circle hooks is no way a cop out for poor fish handling. Whilst I am always happy to learn I am confident that my fish handling is as competent as most pikers. Whilst I do have control over my rigs I do not have control over how a pike takes my bait. I agree entirely with Leon's opinion and findings on this one .

 

It would be good if a body, such as the PAC, were to conduct or sponsor research on this issue, after all conservation is within their remit. Too many pikers suffer from tunnel vision when it comes to the issue of hooks, in my opinion. This is an area that is long overdue for research. I think that the same might be said one or two pike fishing practices that might be fine in the hands of experts, but questionable in the hands of the less able.

 

You seem to be missing my point Peter.Many very experienced and competent pikers have experimented with singles and circles.Its just that so so many more that arnt also look to it as the easy way out.

 

I totally agree that there are several practices common in piking that are quite safe in competent hands but not so in others but cant this be said of a lot of things both in and out of angling?

 

If I had found anything any better then obviously I would be using it myself but just as importantly if I had found anything that was fool proof compared to badly used tactics/techniques I would then have considered guiding newcommers in that direction.But here for me at least lays the problem.....if I /we cant get people to bother learning to use the time proven methods correctly then why would we find it any easier to promote a new "safer" method? The dont want to learn will always be there not wanting to learn surely.

 

I would also be quite confident that if I could take the non treble likers out a few times they would soon change or at least modify their opinions on trebles.I say that because the people on here looking for a new way and experimenting for something better obviously care enough to learn and see what its all about. I dont have a problem with these people they are simply doing something that most pikers have done at one time or another.as always though I worry about all the "looker inners" who may get the wrong idea like I said just looking for an easy option.

 

I dont think there is any doubt at all about Leons piking experience or handling competence but take a look at what happened with his trip today and put an unexperienced angler in the same position.No matter what they do with a circle it would be most unlikely that they would cause the fish any harm no matter how frustrated they got but if they were using a normal single it would be very different.

 

 

I don't care a jot how thick and hard mono is or could be. I've got solid plastic and epoxy coated jerkbaits and lures in the house, with HUGE slices in them, created by pike teeth. You might think I'm wrong but I'm absolutely certain mono is nowhere near as tough or durable as some of these lures are and if they're suffering, mono will too and no doubt it would fail when it's most needed. I just cannot believe that there even discussions on the matter. Mono for traces??? No thanks. I'm sticking to wire.

 

 

Andy I was just answering Barrys understandable question from a few pages back. Like I said though I tried 50lb mono many years ago and the only reason I didnt stick with it was for the ones given. Wire is simply the best material so its not really an issue.

And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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I don't care a jot how thick and hard mono is or could be. I've got solid plastic and epoxy coated jerkbaits and lures in the house, with HUGE slices in them, created by pike teeth. You might think I'm wrong but I'm absolutely certain mono is nowhere near as tough or durable as some of these lures are and if they're suffering, mono will too and no doubt it would fail when it's most needed. I just cannot believe that there even discussions on the matter. Mono for traces??? No thanks. I'm sticking to wire.

 

Don't think your wrong at all, it's your opinion. I brought the question up because i indeed catch sea fish also with very sharp teeth, using mono. Never been bitten through with a ling yet, thats all. I also said the stuff i'm using at present is very soft and supple and i consider it to be thin compared with thicker trace used for conger.

Free to choose apart from the ones where the trust poked their nose in. Common eel. tope. Bass and sea bream. All restricted.


New for 2016 TAT are the main instigators for the demise of the u k bass charter boat industry, where they went screaming off to parliament and for the first time assisting so called angling gurus set up bass take bans with the e u using rubbish exaggerated info collected by ices from anglers, they must be very proud.

Upgrade, the door has been closed with regards to anglers being linked to the e u superstate and the failed c f p. So TAT will no longer need to pay monies to the EAA anymore as that org is no longer relevant to the u k . Goodbye to the europeon anglers alliance and pathetic restrictions from the e u.

Angling is better than politics, ban politics from angling.

Consumer of bass. where is the evidence that the u k bass stock need angling trust protection. Why won't you work with your peers instead of castigating them. They have the answer.

Recipie's for mullet stew more than welcomed.

Angling sanitation trust and kent and sussex sea anglers org delete's and blocks rsa's alternative opinion on their face book site. Although they claim to rep all.

new for 2014. where is the evidence that the south coast bream stock need the angling trust? Your campaign has no evidence. Why won't you work with your peers, the inshore under tens? As opposed to alienating them? Angling trust failed big time re bait digging, even fish legal attempted to intervene and failed, all for what, nothing.

Looks like the sea angling reps have been coerced by the ifca's to compose sea angling strategy's that the ifca's at some stage will look at drafting into legislation to manage the rsa, because they like wasting tax payers money. That's without asking the rsa btw. You know who you are..

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Carp and Cats they work great for but I see no reason to change as Ive never really experienced problems with either of these species with standard hooks.

Pretty good for turtles too, aren't they? :D :D

" My choices in life were either to be a piano player in a whore house or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference!" - Harry Truman, 33rd US President

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Pretty good for turtles too, aren't they? :D :D

 

Unfortunately so Dad! Though thats one case where I wish a hook could be found that didnt hook them!

 

Mind you on a serious note least with a circle you can reletively easily unhook the darn things....I couldnt start to imagine the carnage if you were using a normal hook though!

And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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