Is This A Roach?

[corydoras]

hi all im colin from fife in scotland [who caught this fish], lol i know i can scare rats off a dump at 100 yards there as far as i know no bream in that water ,i honestly dont know myself if its a roach or not , it;s weight was 4lb on the nose. i was fishing for carp at one of the scottish carp group waters called culcreuh castle loch its open for anglers who are guests of the castle and anglers who are members of the scottish carp group its known as fintry in stirlingshire. was caught on a squid and octopus boilie [15mm] topped off with arti maize over a bed of hemp. only 1 single bleep not much of a fight either , at first i thought it was a small carp or a tench. thanks for everyones opinions its very much appreciated tight lines.....colin w.

Hi Colin

I'm not sure if it is a 'genuine' roach or not, but if it is a hybrid then I am pretty sure that one can eliminate bream since in Scotland they are AFAIK only found in Casle Loch, near Lochmaben, and some rivers in Dumfrieshire, although there is evidence that there are bream in Loch Lomond now.

 

PS

I have some rellies who live very close to Fintry.

[Peter Sharpe]

I'm almost certain that it is a true roach, even if its fins look a bit brighter than you might expect. If you were to take a black and white copy of that photo, I doubt if anyone would hesitate for a second. The two-tone look is common enough and whatever causes that might cause excess pigment in the rear fins.

It is quite definitely not a first generation roach/rudd hybrid (or anything else come to that). If it isn't a true roach, it would have to be a roach crossed with a roach/rudd hybrid, which we are led to believe is almost impossible. I reckon the lips show true roach, so does the dorsal and as somebody else pointed out, so does the scale count. It is certainly far more of a true roach than a great many that you see claimed in the media.

 

If there is one slightly worrying feature it is the suggestion of a bit of a keel on one of the photos. Rudd can throw up ornamental varieties, so I'm inclined to think it's just a genetic freak.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Peter Sharpe

[chalky632007]

There is one diagnostic feature that stands out, particularly in pics 1 and 3

 

The front of the dorsal fin is (in a vertical plane) WELL BEHIND the origin of the pelvic fins.

 

That is a strong characteristic of rudd.

 

So it is a hybrid of rudd with SOMETHING !

 

Very interesting - t'other parent might be roach, bream, orfe or chub (that's IMHO in descending order of likelihood).

 

I'm going to have a closer look at the pics this evening, using my Adobe magnifying facilities.

 

No matter what it is, its a super fish, and well done Colin (chalky). Don't let anyone tell you "its only a hybrid", its a splendid catch in its own right.

hi and thank you for your opinion sir tight lines lads , ps there are orfe in the water and the water is in beutiful condition....tight lines .....colin.

[chalky632007]

Hi Colin

I'm not sure if it is a 'genuine' roach or not, but if it is a hybrid then I am pretty sure that one can eliminate bream since in Scotland they are AFAIK only found in Casle Loch, near Lochmaben, and some rivers in Dumfrieshire, although there is evidence that there are bream in Loch Lomond now.

 

PS

I have some rellies who live very close to Fintry.

hi thanks for the message, there are bream in other waters also the ones you mentioned one of our local waters [which is only 3 mile from where i live has bream] and thats in fife , the water where that fish was caught yesterday was around 45 mile away from fife ,and many others dotted around central and south scotland. tight lines ....colin [chalky].

[chalky632007]

I'm almost certain that it is a true roach, even if its fins look a bit brighter than you might expect. If you were to take a black and white copy of that photo, I doubt if anyone would hesitate for a second. The two-tone look is common enough and whatever causes that might cause excess pigment in the rear fins.

It is quite definitely not a first generation roach/rudd hybrid (or anything else come to that). If it isn't a true roach, it would have to be a roach crossed with a roach/rudd hybrid, which we are led to believe is almost impossible. I reckon the lips show true roach, so does the dorsal and as somebody else pointed out, so does the scale count. It is certainly far more of a true roach than a great many that you see claimed in the media.

hi peter many thanks m8 lol youve got me all excited AGAIN one min its a hybrid next its a 100% roach , brilliant stuff bet this time tomorrow i will be in hospital with a heart attack he he thanks again ....colin

[Peter Sharpe]

Can you post a photo of any other large "roach" caught from the same water? Just because the fins look quite orange, it doesn't mean that is beyond the range of colouration. I have caught roach with distictly metallic blue sides and also ones with backs that were almost green. If it is a water where the stock has remained fairly isolated, who knows what local variations could occur. I've just had another thought - are coloured boilies used regularly on this water?

[Dick Dastardly]

As said by many very difficult. Also agree that the photos look like two different fish! (that alone shows how the camera can "lie"!)

 

My first concern was as Mark said the two tone effect.Peter you mention this is quite common in Roach? I must admit to having never seen it in roach myself.

 

Orfe being present also make me suspicious as they seem to cross breed with nearly everything! (as do Ide) go to any comercial type water that has these in and you will find some stange looking roach and crucians (if also present of course!)

 

Despite the scale counts,lips,fin alignments etc I still have to go with my initial feeling that its not a true roach.Like some one said on a previous "identity" thread "If it doesnt look right then it most likely aint right!"

 

Great looking fish though but I must admit that even though I would have enjoyed catching it I would never have been 100% happy with its true identity and therefore a bit dissapointed.

[Dick Dastardly]

Like Peter said it would be interesting to see pictures of other big roach from the same water.

 

Another point tyhat someone brought up was "golden rudd". Rudd seem quite regularly to produce "ornemental" looking versions.I presume that golden rudd are just a variation (blue/golden trout style)? and is it the same with the yellow "Azurine" rudd (Dave?)

 

So maybe possible in roach (not that Ive seen or heard of such)?

 

Colourings in carp baits? Be supprised if it was as there are plenty of other carp waters where big roach have developed due to feeding on the carp baits (Lynch Hill for example) and never heard anything about fish taking on different/enhanced colouration on these waters.But? Robin Red actually was intended for use as a colour enhancer in bird plumage not a carp bait! and it did dye you hands red!

Edited June 28, 2007 by BUDGIE

[corydoras]

Like Peter said it would be interesting to see pictures of other big roach from the same water.

 

Another point tyhat someone brought up was "golden rudd". Rudd seem quite regularly to produce "ornemental" looking versions.I presume that golden rudd are just a variation (blue/golden trout style)? and is it the same with the yellow "Azurine" rudd (Dave?)

 

So maybe possible in roach (not that Ive seen or heard of such)?

 

Colourings in carp baits? Be supprised if it was as there are plenty of other carp waters where big roach have developed due to feeding on the carp baits (Lynch Hill for example) and never heard anything about fish taking on different/enhanced colouration on these waters.But? Robin Red actually was intended for use as a colour enhancer in bird plumage not a carp bait! and it did dye you hands red!

Farmed salmon would not be pink if they did not have dye added to there food. Wild salmon, like flamingos get their colouration from the crustaceans etc that they eat.

[medwaygreen]

 

 

 

Very interesting points made, the Colour is not as i have been informed that unusual in large Roach, however the shape does cause concern, together with the fins bright colour. See here two fairly good shots of genuine Roach for comparison.