Is This A Roach?

[Vagabond]

I have now had a long and careful look at enlargements of all four pictures and done some scale and fin-ray counts

 

The lateral scale count of 45 is consistent with rudd, with roach, and of course with a rudd-roach hybrid.

 

It is NOT consistent with hybrids involving bream or orfe - in both cases you would expect a higher scale count.

 

I won't bore you with the other figures which are either inconclusive or are consistent with the above

 

The fish has the following obvious RUDD features.

Crimson dorsal fin - never seen or heard of a roach with a dorsal fin that colour

Dorsal fin set well back - too far back for it to be a true roach

 

...and the following obvious ROACH features

Terminal, slightly underslung mouth - rudd have upturned mouths

Red iris to eye - most rudd have a golden yellow iris with a red spot

 

So I am 99% certain it is a roach-rudd hybrid

 

I say 99% certain, because there is the remote possibilty that it is not a simple hybrid - there have been occasional reports of fertile roach-rudd hybrids, and back-crosses or F2s would really complicate matters.

 

It is interesting that no-one has commented that the "two-tone" is only visible on the RHS of the fish, the one picture of the LHS does not show it (and I doubt it is a trick of the light, 'cos Colin is standing in the same place for both RHS and LHS shots)

[Peter Sharpe]

With that pair of roach at the bottom, the top one, to my eyes, could be almost identical to the one that is the subject of this topic. I once caught a rudd in the River Glen, which was almost certainly a spontaneous natural occurrence of the golden variety. I've never heard of a similar variety of roach, but as they are so closely related it would seem quite possible. Whatever it is, it certainly isn't one of your run-of-the-mill roach/bream hybrids. I've never heard of orfe interbreeding with other fish and I doubt if they are sufficiently closely related to roach. Apart from that, they breed at different times of the year. I would have thought that they would have been quite common on the Continent if it could happen.

I think the two-tone effect can probably happen to almost any fish, as I think it is just a case of whatever the mechanism is that allows natural colour change according to the conditions to go slightly wrong. It used to be thought that it was the result of a fish spending a considerable time resting up half in and half out of a weed bed, but I think it is now generally recognised that this isn't the case.

 

Whatever it is, it certainly seems a very special fish and you are very lucky to have caught it.

[chalky632007]

Can you post a photo of any other large "roach" caught from the same water? Just because the fins look quite orange, it doesn't mean that is beyond the range of colouration. I have caught roach with distictly metallic blue sides and also ones with backs that were almost green. If it is a water where the stock has remained fairly isolated, who knows what local variations could occur. I've just had another thought - are coloured boilies used regularly on this water?

hi again peter , ive just posted a message on our web site to see if any other anglers have photos of roach caught from fintry, as there was none on the site just perch carp tench.......colin.[chalky].

[ColinW]

Who cares whether its maternal grandfather twice removed was a rudd, it's a superb fish. We all know (or at least we should by now) that it is all but impossible to positively identify these fish, which is why the record fish committee require a corpse for a claim. I wish I'd caught it!

[Dick Dastardly]

I've never heard of orfe interbreeding with other fish and I doubt if they are sufficiently closely related to roach. Apart from that, they breed at different times of the year. I would have thought that they would have been quite common on the Continent if it could happen.

 

In reflection Peter you are quite right.My comments re orfe were utter rubbish! the ide being responsible for the strange hybrids in the waters I was on about! My thought process was a bit clouded.

[chalky632007]

hi again peter , ive just posted a message on our web site to see if any other anglers have photos of roach caught from fintry, as there was none on the site just perch carp tench.......colin.[chalky].

hello again lads just heard there are NO rudd in the water where i caught the fish OR BREAM , as yet no other photos of roach from the same water....colin whyte [chalky].

[Kappa]

In reflection Peter you are quite right.My comments re orfe were utter rubbish! the ide being responsible for the strange hybrids in the waters I was on about! My thought process was a bit clouded.

 

Isn't an Orfe and an Ide one and the same thing? My understanding is that the Golden ones are often called Orfe and the dark ones Ide, although they are are same species. I was also under the impression that all cyprinids could produce hybrids.

 

Rich

[ColinW]

Ide and orfe are the same species, leuciscus idus.

[Norrie]

Hi Colin

I'm not sure if it is a 'genuine' roach or not, but if it is a hybrid then I am pretty sure that one can eliminate bream since in Scotland they are AFAIK only found in Casle Loch, near Lochmaben, and some rivers in Dumfrieshire, although there is evidence that there are bream in Loch Lomond now.

 

PS

I have some rellies who live very close to Fintry.

 

 

Hi Cory, Ahhh, Fintry, spent many a good night in the Clachan, or the Inn...

 

There are Bream in various venues in Scotland now, Strathclyde park is one, or so i'm reliably informed...:).

 

Smashing fish Colin.....:)

[chalky632007]

Hi Cory, Ahhh, Fintry, spent many a good night in the Clachan, or the Inn...

 

There are Bream in various venues in Scotland now, Strathclyde park is one, or so i'm reliably informed...:).

 

Smashing fish Colin.....:)

hi norrie cheers m8 , lol yes i will have to try the inn next time im over, ps heard from our web site there are NO bream or rudd in fintry....colin.