Live-baiting is cruel and barbaric

[poledark]

Sas, there you have it, I don't really care what, if anything, a worm feels, but a grasshopper I wouldn't want to hurt.

 

I will throw one back at you, would you impale a frog on a hook?

 

Den

[tiddlertamer]

Hello TT,

 

An extremely eloquent and at times literary response to a variety of posts.

 

For someone who has just taken up the sport of angling you have become an avaricious reader in such a short space of time.

 

You will notice that i am not commenting on the Topic as i believe there is an agenda here and it is still hidden.

 

I will just say that i find your signature quote very interesting.

 

Best regards.

 

 

I'm not sure if I have misinterpreted your message but it would seem you think I have a hidden agenda.

I wouldn't call it an agenda but I certainly have views. Not dogmatic ones, and ones I am happy to see challenged, and also change if people make convincing arguments.

It is sad though, that in 2008, people who hold reservations about live-baiting and make those reservations public in, about one very small, but, to my view, rather unpleasant aspect of our sport, are viewed with suspicion.

Challenge live-baiting and you are viewed as a heretic. Anyone for a witch trial or inquisition? Less the Anglican Church, more the orthodoxy of the Angling Church. It's all a bit medieval.

Let's have a tolerant debate. Let's make our points. And then move on.

As to my signature:

“He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days without taking a fish.”

The opening lines of Hemingway's 'The Old Man and the Sea

A stunning book about an old man's three-day battle with an eighteen foot marlin. I like the quote simply because it makes me feel better when I blank during these flooded winter months.

The main character also says: “Fish I will love and respect you very much. And I will kill you dead before the day is out.”

I just don't have much need for these latter words ten minutes walk from Colliers Wood tube station as I cast into the river Wandle amidst the estates of inner city South London.

As to Hemingway, I'm sure he'd have no truck with my ideas. But others do and they just might be worth listening to...

[medwaygreen]

Hi TT,

 

I think that we all know the quotation, my point was that Mr Hemingway was the most active Hunter, Fisherman and angler and would most definitely have the utmost truck with your idea's.

 

As you undoubtedly know he went the same way as his Father and one of the commonly acknowledged reasons was that his ill health prevented him from any further participation in his beloved pursuits of Hunting and Fishing.

 

His closest friendship was with a man called Charles Thompson, both men shared a love of hunting and fishing.

 

As to The old man of the sea, yes a truly wonderful read, for my part and opinion the essence of the book is not the wait he had, not the catching and securing of the fish, but the great challenge of bringing the catch home without success.

 

Best wishes.

Edited January 19, 2008 by medwaygreen

[Newt]

TT - maybe I have not read this topic as carefully as you have or maybe my criteria for judging responses is different but I have not seen the threatened or seriously attacking posts you speak of.

 

As to this long running argument changing anyone's views - as I noted early on, that is highly unlikely to happen.

 

Response to Rabbit who asked earlier for my views (and I exclude worms, maggots, grasshoppers, etc. because you folks don't seem to consider them to be alive when discussing live baiting):

 

I think each person should do as they wish as long as their methods are legal. I really don't give a fig what sorts of bait someone else decides to use. For me, it is a moral and ethical non-issue.

 

I personally only use livebaits for flathead catfish that otherwise cannot be caught. Baits are in the ½ - 3 lb range depending on the size of cats I am targeting and I catch the bait at the beginning of a session because there is no place I can buy them.

 

I deadbait the same way - when it is the only reasonable chance to get a result. Blue Catfish only seem to like small cut bait. Again, I catch the bait but in this case I kill it before use since cutting the fish into pieces seems to have that effect.

 

Bait goes into a well aerated live well so at session's end, I can release all I didn't use and most are none the worse for the experience.

 

I only fish for the pot these days if a neighbor has asked for some fish to eat even though keeping fish is legal and accepted.

 

I have no idea why you asked for my opinions since I'm in a totally different country and situation than you are but asked and answered. If you were fishing for some sort of outburst, you were using the wrong bait.

[Ditchrat]

This one will blow your cookies, slightly off the point. But in my travels musky fishing I have bought ducklings to use for bait, and in certain places for large nocturnal brown trout we live line mice for bait that we buy at the pet store.

 

Im sure some of you may be appalled or horrified but it is not uncommon to use other higher mammals for bait. I even recall reading an article where some place in italy they use live cats for bait, I guess they have dogfish there.

 

Things are different for different people and places.

[Sharkbyte]

Hi tiddlertamer

 

Seeing as we're on the coarse forum I will restrict my points / argument to include only my freshwater livebaiting activities.

 

I made the comparison between the relative 'cruelty' toward fish that are harvested (thrown in a fish box to die) and processed into everyday baits such as boilies / trout pellets / groundbait, and that of using a live fish as bait.

 

I know that from years of observations and from some more recent in depth studies, that my lip hooked lives tend to exhibit 'flighty' behavior in only two situations. The first is when the bait enters the water. The fish, more of often that not, tries to escape it's tether, usually for no more than 30 seconds or so. The second is when a predator is spotted (sometimes not) and pursues the bait. On most occasions, when Perching, the float lays flat as the fish rises in the water to escape the Perch and serves as an early warning to the angler that a take is almost inevitable.

 

During the intervening time, between entering the water and a take, the bait fish displays almost no signs of distress. In fact I have observed tethered livebaits taking maggot free offerings!

 

I have to make it clear that nowadays my liveabiting whether for Perch / Pike / Chub only ever involves a single hook through the lip. I used to use the traditional method of a couple of trebles, one through the lip, one in the dorsal for Piking, but have long since ditched the method. Nothing to do with 'cruelty', but everything to do with bait presentation. In my experience, you'll get far more takes on the fined down tackle. On many waters (the clearest ones) the Pike are far from stupid and spot snap tackle a mile off.

 

 

Now, would Poledark, (a keen carp angler, who's been honest and stated that he's no fan of livebaiting) for example, condone an angler (on moral grounds, nothing to do with club rules) setting up next to him, on his favourite carp lake, and spending the morning catching bait fish and throwing them into a flapping heap on the bank. Then, after he's obtained 5kg or so and they have duly expired, pulling out a 12v blender to process the fish into some kind of carpy groundbait. By the afternoon the 'spodding rod' comes out and the whole lot is belted to within 6" of the far bank (I've always been led to believe that's where the carp live ) followed by a baited rig consisting of the latest super scopex maple 8 active boilie?

 

I think I've provided a fair comparison between two sides of the sport, neither of which I have any problem with. But stragely, I've never heard an anti livebaiting angler berate a carp / course angler for using, sometimes, vast quantities of fish based attractants / groundbait / loose feed, the bulk of which is never even used as a hookbait.

 

Even on a red letter day, I wouldn't get through more than a dozen - fifteen livebaits, all of which are hookbaits, and unless taken are returned to the water with almost zero wastage.

 

Out of sight, out of mind??????

[saskcarp]

Sas, there you have it, I don't really care what, if anything, a worm feels, but a grasshopper I wouldn't want to hurt.

 

I will throw one back at you, would you impale a frog on a hook?

 

Den

Ha Ha! Actually, I did impale a frog on a hook a few seasons ago for the first time ever . If I looked at the frog I would get a guilty feeling but when I would think of the size of the pike that swam in that water and that i knew one wouldn't hesitate to gulp down that frog, I got exited. It's now banned, it's not banned for ethical reasons but it's because leopard frogs are on the decline along with the rest of the world's frog population.

[poledark]

Don't want to labour the point Sas, but as you say, you did have a "guilty feeling" For me, that sort of feeling just got stronger, to the extent that I no longer livebait.

 

And just for the record, I have used a live frog when after a reputed huge Brown trout. When I watched its pathetic struggles, I released it....never again. That was about 55 years ago.

 

 

Den

[eamonn321]

were reduced to pussy holes

 

Titter...

[gozzer]

I can (to some extent) understand TT stance on this subject, (even if his first post started out as a statement of fact, and now appears to be a personal view or opinion). He is talking with very little personal experience of the matter, and is relying on 2nd hand information and hearsay. (Still think there's an agenda though ).

 

What I can't understand is the viewpoints given by some of the more experienced anglers, some that admit to using livebait in the past, but having some kind of 'epiphany', that made them see the 'light'. If you used it in the past, then why not let others do the same now? Who knows, they might have the same 'epiphany' as you in time, but if not, it's their choice in the end.

 

Den, you say one of the things that upsets you is the "shudder" as the snap tackle is put on the fish.

How do you know that the same "shudder" doesn't happen when you strike home a hook into a carps lip? I doubt you have held a carp while a mate strikes the hook home. Until you have, then there must be an element of doubt. Or is it a case of "if I don't see it, it don't happen"? Surely this is on a par with those that that bury their heads, and say "I'll eat meat, but not if I've seen it killed".

You also say that you couldn't put a hook into a grasshopper, or frog, but in past debates we've had, you have been very adamant in what you would like done to otters.

 

These are (IMO) the contradicting views that puzzle me, and is why I started the 'Ethics' thread.

 

There are some things accepted as normal in todays angling, that I do not agree with. One is 'bolt rigs', which (especially when used with bite alarms, and bivvies) I feel are no more than 'set lines' (which are illegal). But this is my view, and although I don't use or agree with the method, I wouldn't call for a ban on them, I just don't do it myself.

 

We all have personal likes and dislikes, and are capable of making a choice as to what we feel comfortable with. So why not just get on with what we feel comfortable with as individuals, and leave others to do the same? Providing it's legal of course.

 

John.

Edited January 19, 2008 by gozzer