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E U. Should we stay or should we leave.


barry luxton

BREXIT in or out  

52 members have voted

  1. 1. should the u k remain in or leave the E U

    • vote to stay in
      12
    • vote to stay in following e u rule change
      2
    • vote to leave
      38


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Thanks for responding John.

 

My initial response is that if you're worried about trust, you wait and see how a totally unrestricted Tory party treats the UK. I can't think of a better reason to remain full active members of the EU. Deregulation and erosion of rights all round. Say what you like about the EU, but protection of its citizens is taken extremely seriously. You won't want to hear this, but they are on your side even if you aren't on theirs.

 

I've said before that the remain campaign was terrible, all negative and none of the positives of membership. A second referendum would be very different, and is one of the reasons it's so hard to secure. It would be a positive campaign and it would win.

 

The government's own 'get ready for brexit' adverts are already a decent anti-brexit campaign. As well as being a colossal and unforgivable waste of public money.

 

If the current actual written down legal text was at the centre of the leave campaign, it would have lost. The only way to keep people invested in the idea of brexit is to let everyone have their own idea of what it is and to avoid written detail at all costs. As soon as it's written down, it gets pulled apart in seconds. A decent case in point now is Johnson saying his version of the withdrawal agreement is what 17.4 million people voted for, and Farage saying it's exactly what 17.4 million people didn't vote for. Who is right? That's why I'm asking for people here to write down actual real things that will be better once we've left. No-one can. It's all just vague concepts of things that may or may not happen in some unspecified future.

 

The actual possible version of brexit - i.e. the published legal text, not vague assurances or ideas - needs to be compared to two things: 1. the promises made in the leave campaign, and 2. what we already have with EU membership. It is obvious that it would not stack up against either. 'Delivering on the result of the referendum' is delivering what was promised. If they can't do that (and they can't as all the promises were contradictory), we deserve a final say on whether what is actually possible is what the majority want. The reality is so far removed from what was promised, that the two things are unrecognisable.

 

I will pre-empt the comments about 'and if you lose another referendum will you just keep asking until you get the result you want', with 'no'. A second confirmatory referendum would be on the negotiated legal text v remain. If the majority want to proceed and leave with the negotiated arrangements, fine, that's an informed vote and everyone knows exactly what we get either way. The first one was won with impossible promises. If remain won, well that's the will of the people, and we all know how important that is to leavers.

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And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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Sorry how do i know your not lying ,according to you the "public" lie ,can you provide absolute proof your not lying now?

Are you lying you make it as you go along you dont believe anything anybody says but did believe boris Johnson when he said we would leave on the 31st October now that was a concrete lie you might have believed that one now I wonder if he will be dead into a ditch like hell he will full of crap and deceit as usual he is now registered as a compulsive liar .

Edited by big_cod

http://sea-otter2.co.uk/

Probably Whitby's most consistent charterboat

Untitled-1.jpg

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Are you lying you make it as you go along you dont believe anything anybody says but did believe boris Johnson when he said we would leave on the 31st October now that was a concrete lie you might have believed that one now I wonder if he will be dead into a ditch like hell he will full of crap and deceit as usual he is now registered as a compulsive liar .

Why would i believe boris when i dont believe what anyone says? If people stupidly believe anything then they only have themselves to blame when its wrong .

PS those that believe we will leave on the 31st of oct will see for themselves if its true on the 1st of nov!

Believe NOTHING anyones says or writes unless you witness it yourself and even then your eyes can deceive you

None of this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" crap it just means i have at least two enemies!

 

There is only one opinion i listen to ,its mine and its ALWAYS right even when its wrong

 

Its far easier to curse the darkness than light one candle

 

Mathew 4:19

Grangers law : anything i say will  turn out the opposite or not happen at all!

Life insurance? you wont enjoy a penny!

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." Thomas Jefferson

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Why would i believe boris when i dont believe what anyone says? If people stupidly believe anything then they only have themselves to blame when its wrong .

PS those that believe we will leave on the 31st of oct will see for themselves if its true on the 1st of nov!

Do you believe in brexit ! I think we should leave Eurovision instead ? Edited by big_cod
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http://sea-otter2.co.uk/

Probably Whitby's most consistent charterboat

Untitled-1.jpg

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Deregulation and erosion of rights all round. Say what you like about the EU, but protection of its citizens is taken extremely seriously. You won't want to hear this, but they are on your side even if you aren't on theirs.

 

Can you evidence this statement by factual argument?

"My imaginary friend doesn't like your imaginary friend is no basis for armed conflict...."

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Thanks for responding John.

 

My initial response is that if you're worried about trust, you wait and see how a totally unrestricted Tory party treats the UK. I can't think of a better reason to remain full active members of the EU. Deregulation and erosion of rights all round. Say what you like about the EU, but protection of its citizens is taken extremely seriously. You won't want to hear this, but they are on your side even if you aren't on theirs.

 

I've said before that the remain campaign was terrible, all negative and none of the positives of membership. A second referendum would be very different, and is one of the reasons it's so hard to secure. It would be a positive campaign and it would win.

 

The government's own 'get ready for brexit' adverts are already a decent anti-brexit campaign. As well as being a colossal and unforgivable waste of public money.

 

If the current actual written down legal text was at the centre of the leave campaign, it would have lost. The only way to keep people invested in the idea of brexit is to let everyone have their own idea of what it is and to avoid written detail at all costs. As soon as it's written down, it gets pulled apart in seconds. A decent case in point now is Johnson saying his version of the withdrawal agreement is what 17.4 million people voted for, and Farage saying it's exactly what 17.4 million people didn't vote for. Who is right? That's why I'm asking for people here to write down actual real things that will be better once we've left. No-one can. It's all just vague concepts of things that may or may not happen in some unspecified future.

 

The actual possible version of brexit - i.e. the published legal text, not vague assurances or ideas - needs to be compared to two things: 1. the promises made in the leave campaign, and 2. what we already have with EU membership. It is obvious that it would not stack up against either. 'Delivering on the result of the referendum' is delivering what was promised. If they can't do that (and they can't as all the promises were contradictory), we deserve a final say on whether what is actually possible is what the majority want. The reality is so far removed from what was promised, that the two things are unrecognisable.

 

I will pre-empt the comments about 'and if you lose another referendum will you just keep asking until you get the result you want', with 'no'. A second confirmatory referendum would be on the negotiated legal text v remain. If the majority want to proceed and leave with the negotiated arrangements, fine, that's an informed vote and everyone knows exactly what we get either way. The first one was won with impossible promises. If remain won, well that's the will of the people, and we all know how important that is to leavers.

From a personal point of view, I'd say the end of free movement and more control over who and how many that choose to come here is a big positive. I think the idea of unregulated and limitless free movement among EU member states is crazy, and i'd feel the exact same way whatever nationality I happened to be. Housing, public services, education, jobs, wages, social cohesion etc are all going to be negatively impacted with uncontrolled migration. I voted Leave and would vote the same way tromorrow. But if the referendum had of been won by the Remain side i'd have just shrugged my shoulders and accepted it as the result the majority of the country wanted and got on with life. I think the problem now is that we had a referendum and those that run the country haven't delivered on what the people wanted and were promised, whether that would have been Remain or Leave. The politicians that have disrupted, blocked and generally f**cked up the whole process should hang their heads in shame as they have just caused more anger and division amongst the population. If another referendum happens and Remain wins then what? Those that steadfastly voted Leave in the 1st referendum would have every right to be outraged.....and so it goes on and on causing more anger, resentment and division.

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Eat right, stay fit, die anyway.

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Deregulation and erosion of rights all round. Say what you like about the EU, but protection of its citizens is taken extremely seriously. You won't want to hear this, but they are on your side even if you aren't on theirs.

 

Can you evidence this statement by factual argument?

https://www.ft.com/content/5eb0944e-f67c-11e9-9ef3-eca8fc8f2d65

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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The end of free movement is an erosion of our rights. If you think it means the end of immigration youre sadly mistaken. Immigration will remain at current levels whether free movement of EU citizens remains or not. If the number of Eu immigrants fall, the number of non-Eu citizens will rise. The levels of immigration will be completely unchanged, but uk citizens will be at a massive disadvantage. Ill dig out the charts if you need me to but this is very basic factual stuff.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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Sorry Andrew, but have you got anything that doesn't require a subscription?

 

John.

https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1187815316228919297?s=21

 

Likely to be mainstream news soon but really not unexpected, you think a Tory government has your/your kids/your grandkids best interests at heart? What do you think this whole project is for?

Edited by Anderoo

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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