E U. Should we stay or should we leave.

[chesters1]

No-one did the same when we joined so whats the difference ,no one mentions all the companies and people that became unemployed in the time since we joined.

The cheapness of EU based goods (or rather the ease of getting it here) is good on one hand but cheap coal led to destroying the mining industry ,good for the consumer but bad for the country.

Then theres the thousands of what was british companies bought out by EU ones ,good as employers bad for raising tax

 

Every decision we make has consequences and you cannot please all of the people all of the time ,lifes tough

Britains been in far worse places we came out of two wars bunkrupt and still we exist ,why doesnt anyone have faith anymore we cant survive unless we are run by europe?

We were not run by europe since the 1400's and did ok infact we did very well without being run by europe and they did ok not running us but getting on with us and just trading not demanding we jump through hoops and pay billions for something we have done since the bronze age

 

As for cods cheap labour we have always had it and always will ,instead of just turning up the EU labour will have to ask just like every other bit of labour from outside the EU ,the difference being we cannot stop EU labour it comes whether we need it or not ,if we acted and actually had a border control we could actually only except who we needed not just mass immigration on an uncontollable level as now

As to the labour itself its not as if we can only have EU labour we get it from all over the planet ,look around in the NHS they are not all yellow-haired Teutonic western europeans most are filipinos and around here nepalise ,we are not so dependant on the EU as some dictate !

 

As to trade the EU is about as bad a deal as you can get ,its a trading bloc they arrange everything so its impossible for one country to do a deal with a non eu country and say import steel cheaper than germany and sell steel internally for a profit ,no the EU once you delve deeper its anti competition and hold all the cards so the member can only trade where and with who and at what cost they dictate and charge you billions for the privilage of this "free" trade!

 

Yes we can get cheap yoghurt that tastes of air from a german company but at the cost of getting cheap crap from a uk one ,we can go without yoghurt i am sure (and all the rest) until some uk company realises theres a hole in the market and sells us it ,theres no food from the EU we either cannot go without or source elswhere ,and most white goods dont come from there at all so we are not going to run out of fridges for a while!

Edited August 16, 2019 by chesters1

[Mikench]

We are not run by Europe and never have been. I'm not aware of us importing coal from Europe and the demise of our industry( very sad) was largely due to the creation of the clean air act and smoke free zones and in no small way down to Scargill and his cronies thinking they ran the country.

 

I accept fully that when we joined there were 6 countries and now there are 28. Some of the basic principles of membership just don't work with 28 countries of which at least half do not contribute much yet have an equal say. The EU will struggle without us and the likes of Malta, Cyprus, Slovakia, Croatia and many others cannot even collectively, make up the shortfall. I dislike the beurocrats in Brussels who just do not learn but on balance we are better off in than out . I would accept Brexit but only with a deal. See my analogy above.

 

We are too inextricably mixed with Europe to just leave without any agreement on preserving many good aspects of membership- no roaming fees, health service support, freedom of movement, labour laws, double taxation treaties etc. We cannot even pull up a drawbridge; we don't have one.

[chesters1]

We are run by europe try buying creosote or trading with another country without express permission of the EU !

Yes some directives are negotiable but its far easier for these weak uk governments just to implement them but most like this human rights crap are not negotiable you impliment them or else (not sure the punishment but the government do it)

Just one directive is being run by europe if it destroys industry here

Although coal from europe is pretty small today in 2016 we imported 500,000 tons it would have been far higher when coal was the main source of electric generation pre gas

 

Dont mention the unions cod will cry lol

 

No-one want to leave without an agreement but the EU demands are so high in essence we are not leaving europe under terms agreeable to the UK (as seen in 3 votes) the only other scenario is remain or leave without a pact then negotiate fresh terms ,once the EU realise their members will lose bilions they will negotiate or they with collapse

All the time these idiots stop a no deal or the option of a no deal they leave the cards in the EU's hands knowing they hold them all so do their best to keep us in at all costs

 

No-one would have a problem paying a couple of billion bribing the EU leaders to not implement border control and taxes on goods are they are now but thats it all the rest is the EU dictating what we do ,how we live and who we trade with outside the EU and tell us we cannot stop their members coming over by the million isnt what is wanted

Edited August 16, 2019 by chesters1

[gozzer]

Using your analogy Mike.

 

Do you think it's better to deal with all the hassle surrounding the split, and separate, with a possibly amicable future, or, decide to back down, and live a miserable existence in a relationship that you don't feel is working, and is likely to get worse?

 

It all boils down to what you believe will happen. Many of us who voted leave, have said that our vision of the future is one of the reasons we voted as we did. I have hardly heard anything from remain voters saying what they believe the future in the EU will be, only what it has been like, and how it is now.

 

John.

Edited August 16, 2019 by gozzer

[big_cod]

Using your analogy Mike.

 

Do you think it's better to deal with all the hassle surrounding the split, and separate, with a possibly amicable future, or, decide to back down, and live a miserable existence in a relationship that you don't feel is working, and is likely to get worse?

 

It all boils down to what you believe will happen. Many of us who voted leave, have said that our vision of the future is one of the reasons we voted as we did. I have hardly heard anything from remain voters saying what they believe the future in the EU will be, only what it has been like, and how it is now.

 

John.

But John the brexiteers cannot promise better than we have now brexit is laughable its a totally guessing game anybody in bujsness doing the same would be bonkers o wonder remainders get so annoyed when there is no facts half truths and feet first from leading brexiteers Boris head is on block he will be in exile by Christmas if not before .

Edited August 16, 2019 by big_cod

[gozzer]

But John the brexiteers cannot promise better than we have now brexit is laughable its a totally guessing game anybody in bujsness doing the same would be bonkers o wonder remainders get so annoyed when there is no facts half truths and feet first from leading brexiteers Boris head is on block he will be in exile by Christmas if not before .

 

Paul, please read what I posted, "It all boils down to what you believe will happen". I believe that we will be better off, in the long term, you and others like you don't, but you cannot promise anything different either, so why do you keep saying the same things over and over again? You say it's a "totally guessing game", but yet you presume to tell us that we will be worse off. Can't you see that you are contradicting yourself every time you say it?

I can see that some of the remain group are getting annoyed, it seems that it's because they don't want to listen to any opinion other than the one they hold. This manifests it'self, in many areas, with churlish, petulant, outbursts aimed at those who believe different. If this behaviour was aimed at someone of a different religion, colour, sexual preference, etc, it would be classed as bigotted, and/or racist.

 

But don't take any notice of me, I'm just (according to some), a privileged, white, Northern, Knuckle dragging Neanderthal male, who is old. I shouldn't have an opinion, because I will die soon, (not soon enough according to some), and therefore don't qualify for a say in the future of this country.

Go figure why I don't respect the views of many of the more vociferous remainers.

 

John.

 

had to edit, I said the exact opposite to what I meant in part of it, luckily it seems to have gone unnoticed.....but now that I've pointed it out

Edited August 16, 2019 by gozzer

[big_cod]

 

Paul, please read what I posted, "

It all boils down to what you believe will happen

".

I believe that we will be worse off, in the long term, you and others like you don't, but you cannot promise anything different either, so why do you keep saying the same things over and over again? You say it's a "totally guessing game", but yet you presume to tell us that we will be worse off. Can't you see that you are contradicting yourself every time you say it?

I can see that some of the remain group are getting annoyed, it seems that it's because they don't want to listen to any opinion other than the one they hold. This manifests it'self, in many areas, with churlish, petulant, outbursts aimed at those who believe different. If this behaviour was aimed at someone of a different religion, colour, sexual preference, etc, it would be classed as bigotted, and/or racist.

 

But don't take any notice of me, I'm just (according to some), a privileged, white, Northern, Knuckle dragging Neanderthal male, who is old. I shouldn't have an opinion, because I will die soon, (not soon enough according to some), and therefore don't qualify for a say in the future of this country.

Go figure why I don't respect the views of many of the more vociferous remainers.

 

John.

John we will be worse no John we ARE worse off , is not after Brexit its now the pound is near on a record low everything more expensive you say its temporary how do you know that even the governments own finding on the affects of Brexit are all coming to fruition from the referendum it was said no its all scaremongering it ain't any more its reality Brexit is not what the British people was told before the referendum No mention. Of the pound crashing no mention of food shortages no mention of job loses you might think its all ok millions and millions do not John and anybody that says its ok for people to lose there jobs your standard of living to drop because you told we would be better off is shocking to say the least . Edited August 16, 2019 by big_cod

[Anderoo]

John, the remain campaign was absolutely dreadful, we can agree on that! All negative, nothing about the benefits of being a full Eu member. I would hope that since then people may have realised what a good position we currently have/used to have, but this has been so horrible and divisive that everyone has navigated even more to each extreme. Its really grim.

 

This thread is a brilliant example of that, same old stuff from the same people for nearly a thousand pages. Me included. The population hasnt moved on one bit. The leave camp now demand the most extreme version of brexit possible because thats the only way to keep the dream alive, and the remain camp will never stop until we have rejoined. In the meantime the rest of the world looks on with pity and gets on with their lives. Its all just really sad.

[gozzer]

John, the remain campaign was absolutely dreadful, we can agree on that! All negative, nothing about the benefits of being a full Eu member. I would hope that since then people may have realised what a good position we currently have/used to have, but this has been so horrible and divisive that everyone has navigated even more to each extreme. Its really grim.

 

This thread is a brilliant example of that, same old stuff from the same people for nearly a thousand pages. Me included. The population hasnt moved on one bit. The leave camp now demand the most extreme version of brexit possible because thats the only way to keep the dream alive, and the remain camp will never stop until we have rejoined. In the meantime the rest of the world looks on with pity and gets on with their lives. Its all just really sad.

 

At least we can agree on something Andrew, there are very few on either side that come out of it with even an ounce of credit.

 

As to this thread, I've said to myself that I'll not post on it anymore, but stupidly allow myself to get dragged back in again.

I don't think anyone on here has changed their mind on the subject, the events over the last three years have only served to harden the resolve of both sides.

There's a line from a song that goes, 'And the needle returns to the start of the song, and we all sing along like before', that seems to sum up this thread pretty accurately.

 

John.

[gozzer]

John we will be worse no John we ARE worse off , is not after Brexit its now the pound is near on a record low everything more expensive you say its temporary how do you know that even the governments own finding on the affects of Brexit are all coming to fruition from the referendum it was said no its all scaremongering it ain't any more its reality Brexit is not what the British people was told before the referendum No mention. Of the pound crashing no mention of food shortages no mention of job loses you might think its all ok millions and millions do not John and anybody that says its ok for people to lose there jobs your standard of living to drop because you told we would be better off is shocking to say the least .

 

Paul, have you thought that maybe we are 'worse off', not necessarily because of Brexit itself, (after all it hasn't happened yet), but because of the uncertainty about the direction Brexit might take? You have admitted that businesses don't like uncertainty, well we have had it in spades over the last three years.

Don't you think that there might have been even the slightest chance that we wouldn't be in the state you say we are in now, if there hadn't been so many mixed messages bandied about? If those who tried to undermine the referendum result, (often for personal gain), hadn't gone behind the backs of the people, and the UK Parliament, to 'advise' the EU leaders, that we will capitulate to any old offer?

Is it not even remotely possible that the EU 'negotiators' would have been open to a more mutually beneficially settlement, if they hadn't been assured that the possibility of a No Deal exit was non-existent?

Lastly is it not possible that the financial situation we are in now, could be, at least in part, caused by the slowing of the Global economy, and the possibility of a Global recession?

 

I know what your answer will be Paul, the same as it has been on just about every post you've made on this thread, 'it's all down to Brexiteers, and the Tories'.

 

John.