E U. Should we stay or should we leave.

[Mikench]

John I appreciate the marriage breakdown analogy is flawed and , thankfully, it hasn't happened to me but I would have considered my children and the likely effect on them before being entirely selfish . Whatever I did and whatever the reasons the fall out would only affect a small number of people, maybe 10 and not 17 million plus in the UK alone, the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland and further afield. Brexit is fraught with dangers, unknown consequences and possible catastrophes. Then again it might not but that is my point NOBODY knows. I wouldn't leave my wife without knowing and planning for the consequences which a no deal Brexit patently does not.

 

We will never agree as views are polarised.

[*Ant*]

It'll be interesting to find out in a few years time if anyone from either side will hold their hands up and admit they were wrong. I wouldn't bet on it that's for sure.

[big_cod]

 

Paul, have you thought that maybe we are 'worse off', not necessarily because of Brexit itself, (after all it hasn't happened yet), but because of the uncertainty about the direction Brexit might take? You have admitted that businesses don't like uncertainty, well we have had it in spades over the last three years.

Don't you think that there might have been even the slightest chance that we wouldn't be in the state you say we are in now, if there hadn't been so many mixed messages bandied about? If those who tried to undermine the referendum result, (often for personal gain), hadn't gone behind the backs of the people, and the UK Parliament, to 'advise' the EU leaders, that we will capitulate to any old offer?

Is it not even remotely possible that the EU 'negotiators' would have been open to a more mutually beneficially settlement, if they hadn't been assured that the possibility of a No Deal exit was non-existent?

Lastly is it not possible that the financial situation we are in now, could be, at least in part, caused by the slowing of the Global economy, and the possibility of a Global recession?

 

I know what your answer will be Paul, the same as it has been on just about every post you've made on this thread, 'it's all down to Brexiteers, and the Tories'.

 

John.

John I totally respect your position but here is a Tory been around for a few years dont always agree with Kens stance but here we go .

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ken-clarke-corbyn-caretaker-pm-stop-no-deal-brexit-tories-swinson-a9063011.html

Edited August 16, 2019 by big_cod

[chesters1]

John I appreciate the marriage breakdown analogy is flawed and , thankfully, it hasn't happened to me but I would have considered my children and the likely effect on them before being entirely selfish . Whatever I did and whatever the reasons the fall out would only affect a small number of people, maybe 10 and not 17 million plus in the UK alone, the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland and further afield. Brexit is fraught with dangers, unknown consequences and possible catastrophes. Then again it might not but that is my point NOBODY knows. I wouldn't leave my wife without knowing and planning for the consequences which a no deal Brexit patently does not.

 

We will never agree as views are polarised.

You can apply that to 40 odd years ago when we joined ,did those that voted to stay in consider the possibility that their children would be priced out of the housing scheme by EU members taking up beds / houses they may have wanted to live in themselves but rents went through the roof due to demand.

Did they consider the impact on sevices where demand makes waiting lists far longer (no longer its a case of turning up taking a ticket and being seen that morning by my doc now its several weeks wait)

Did they consider our new mates would come here in droves and take jobs ours could have taken and forced down wages in many cases because employers no longer need to attract workers with increased wages and perks?

 

Theres consequences doing anything why was joining good despite the above but leaving bad ?

 

One reason was there was little mention how entangled the EU would get in our politics and parliament and no referendums as we got deeper in the mire over the years ,did blair consider anyone when he excepted the lisbon treaty and dropped us right in it!

 

Business just whines about EU handouts and farmers mumble they wont get paid to produce nothing but they forget where their nice handouts come from ,its the contributers ,its uk tax payers the EU has no income it does nothing but distrubute other members money and charge them to do it ,theres still going to be money but hopefully not so easy to get from uk tax payers with the money NOT being paid to the EU !

Welsh farmers will still get paid to open a gate and shove sheep on a hill ,and it will still be far more expensive to do that insteading of asking them to diversify or get a real job while we import sheep cheaper from the rest of the world .why do people prop up failed industry they ceratainly didnt give me money when i was self employed why farmers and fishermen? If you cant survive on what you produce get another job like everyone else in the country!

 

Whats wrong with wine lakes and butter mountains it lowers prices to everyone ,why are people paid not to produce stuff which artificialy raises the prices for everyone?

Why should countries get billions for joining the EU ,if they cannot support their own people why should we pay for it ,did they frickin give us handouts when we got skint after the war when we came out of rationing in 1953 but germany came out in 1947? ,wheres germany givin us money ,or france or the rest ,why do we put our hands in our pockets when our country has suffered because we give handouts to poles and romanians because they cannot be arsed to sort themselves out? Whos aked US if we want to give money to other countries or sort out the NHS instead?

 

Erhaps if the people were consulted at every treaty we would have left long ago before we got in so deep!

Edited August 16, 2019 by chesters1

[Ken L]

The 17+ million people who voted leave were never asked about the terms of any departure and not told about the probable consequences. The 17- million people who voted to remain will be disenfranchised by a no deal Brexit, lose jobs, and face a most uncertain future. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain so will be most dischuffed when we do without a deal.

 

You can leave your wife /husband quite easily by packing a bag and leaving. However you will have to deal with the family home, the custody and access to children, the division of assets, pensions as well as the emotional and financial turmoil you will cause. People do it but it often ends in tears with children badly affected for ever. This analogy only affects you and your immediate family and not millions of people, entire countries within the union and future generations.

 

The risible comments of some about not giving a fig about leaving without a deal are beyond belief. The buffoon is in favour but then he has committed adultery, left his sick wife and doesn't know how many kids he has got. Some role model as a father let alone a PM.

 

I hope the leavers can support the remainers when we sink without trace.

Remainers keep on repeating this nonsense like a mantra.

It's completely untrue, so I can only presume you weren't paying attention.

Even if you weren't listening to the leave side, we had arch ramainer Phillip Hammond saying it like it is:

[Mikench]

Believe me the prospect of Brexit has my almost undivided attention. If there are people denying your children and colleagues a home, a job and easy access to their GP, they are either seasonal workers doing jobs brits do not want do not want to do or non Europeans . Most immigration to this country is of non Europeans.

 

My experience and that of my entire family has been positive. I regard myself as a European and will remain one regardless. The leavers were lied to and swallowed all the lies, to make a piscatorial metaphor, hook line and sinker. Nothing you can say will ever persuade me that I am wrong but if I am , and still alive to tell the tale, I will apologise unreservedly but remain living in Europe.

[ayjay]

The leavers were lied to and swallowed all the lies, to make a piscatorial metaphor, hook line and sinker.

 

What makes you think we were listening to any propaganda, whether truth or lie?

 

I didn't need to listen to any politician to know my views on Brexit - they were unchanged since the first referendum when I voted not to join in the first place.

[chesters1]

Mp's ,business owners and the media are the last people i would use as a basis to do anything .

I expect some took notice but the older generation by far used experience over propaganda on both sides.

The young have been brainwashed all their lives so not so capable of independant thought.

I for one never believe anyone until i do a bit of research and even then most is based on opinion rather than hard fact.

 

My choice was easy i hate being told what to do by parliament i didnt give them permission so choosing not to be told what to do by a bunch of foreigners easy!

Why should people be given power to dictate how others live its madness

 

IMHO voting for anything should be restricted to the over 60's by this time hopefully they have seen all the ways people lie and distort the truth to their agenda and hopefully can see the reason behind it ,generally vested interests power and money and vote accordingly

Edited August 17, 2019 by chesters1

[Ken L]

TIK-TOK.

[gozzer]

Whenever I hear someone describe themselves as European rather than British it always brings a smile to my face.

 

A couple of years ago, I was having a discussion with a few of my daughters friends about the pros and cons of us leaving the EU. They are mostly a friendly bunch of twentysomethings, that my wife and I have known since their childhood, and a few even call us their 'second mum and dad'. It was one of several such discussions, and was going along peacefully, with a bit of sarcasm, and mild pee taking thrown in. Then one lad who I hadn't met before, made the suggestion that I and others like me, should be excluded from voting, on the grounds of age, and the probability of a fairly imminent expiry date. I made some joke about the idea not being very original, and mentioned experience versus, enthusiasm. He took umbrage at my comment, I assume because he thought I would get wound up about it, and he started getting annoyed, and very aggressive towards me. He had earlier declared himself "European above everything else", and would "always be so". When I suggested that, using his logic, being European, instead of a 'citizen of the UK', should therefore exclude him from voting in a UK referendum, he couldn't see the irony of it, or even my tongue fixed firmly in my cheek. I couldn't repeat his reply on an open forum. Our 'debate' ended when I then pointed out that his childlike outburst completely negated his argument that youth should have priority over age, in this, or any vote. He left shortly after.

 

John.