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It was about 3-4" lutra, with a 2oz inline lead. Just one of those wierd things I guess! I'm sure it's very atypical. I was in a massive quandry as you can imagine :o

 

When it was under the rod tip (and I was a complete shaky mess) it hung there for a while, slowly and strongly shaking its head from side to side. That's what I reckon it was doing after it was hooked.

 

I reckon that because of the way they feed, tipping up and then righting themselves with nearly every mouthful, any sensible bolt-type rig will hook a bream with no problem. Unlike tench, which can stay vertical for ages, hardly moving. I do prefer short hooklengths for all the obvious reasons, but if I had to use one of 10" for these big bream I wouldn't lose too much sleep. From reading about the mere and queenford boys in the 80s and 90s, it sounds like bream hang on to a bait for ages anyway, even with running rigs. I reckon for tench it does pay to get things just right, but bream, not so much.

I'm not sure what was going on when your bream had hooked its self. I can only say its not the norm on the waters i fish, but maybe there is a case for saying that big shoal fish behave different when hooked, but you will just have to do some more testing before we can be sure. :)

 

The other good thing about short bolt rigs is the elimination of deep hooked fish and this is despite me fishing two rods over big shoals of fish and often not being able to get to my other rod when a fish takes as I'm already landing one. Normally what happens in this situation is the bream will just go on a 30yrd+ run and then just stop and plod around and you can just bring it in when you are ready.

Edited by lutra

 

A tiger does not lose sleep over the opinion of sheep

 

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Could it also be that some of them would never pick up a boilie or pellet, but would sip in a couple of maggots?

 

All my decent bream have come on maggot so I for one will be using maggots as much as possible this year!

 

On the subject on short hooklengths and bolt rigs... Anderoo if the you had

been using a running rig or a loosely fixed bolt rig that became running on the take I reckon the bite would have been more positive. If the lead is just hanging off the fisher mouth I think it is much easier for them to shake the hook out.

 

Rich

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Maybe, but I think this another one of those things where two people reach two different conclusions from the same data! I see it that the fish was hooked so well that it wasn't able to throw the hook (it was properly nailed), and that therefore the rig is good. It was square in the bottom lip and wasn't going anywhere. I think it just spent two minutes making itself as hooked as it could be! I'm sure that 9 times out of 10 it would have pulled line off the baitrunner in the normal way, but even so I reckon I could have left it like that for an hour and it still would have been on the end. I can handle the odd wierd bite if they're hooked that well.

 

(A thought just occurred to me - we know that that fish had been caught before (it had a unique old healed scar on one flank) - I don't want to start crediting these fish with super intellects, but i wonder if that made a difference to how it reacted? Probably not, but I've typed it now, so I'll leave it!)

 

No, I'm happy with rigs and indication. If i started rethinking everything now I'd lose confidence and start off badly. At the moment everything is as clear in my mind as it's going to be this season, and I'm as confident as I can be that I know what I'm doing with everything except location...

 

I wish they'd just roll on the surface along their patrol routes like the books say they do :rolleyes:

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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Guest tigger
All my decent bream have come on maggot so I for one will be using maggots as much as possible this year!

 

On the subject on short hooklengths and bolt rigs... Anderoo if the you had

been using a running rig or a loosely fixed bolt rig that became running on the take I reckon the bite would have been more positive. If the lead is just hanging off the fisher mouth I think it is much easier for them to shake the hook out.

 

Rich

 

 

 

I would think a weight pulling on the hook would keep the hook bedded in rather than pull it out Richard. A friend of mine used to use up to six foot of hooklength on a running rig in years gone by on his trips to Ierland for Bream and it was the norm. Funny how it's changed to bolt rigs now, though I must say I think the bolt rig is the way to go especially when fishing more than one rod set ups.

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Man this thread got very interesting! It's one of the best discussions (despite the hiccup a few pages back) I've ever read on the internet.

Where to start to reply?

I'll start with this, there are in my view clear differences between meres and gravel pits and the way fish react in them.

The mere's are natural lakes created though the ice age and in the main soup bowl shaped. They do however come in two distinct types - Shallow, down to 15 ft deep. Deep down to 50 ft. The deeper ones stratify with what known as the thermocline. This is an important point on this type of mere.

 

Without going any deeper into the above, this link will give you a further understanding of the meres http://www.fishingmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/1572

 

Sand/gravel pits in my area tend to be like egg boxes totally up and down with flat areas that can be up to 100 metres squire. They tend to be shallower than the deep mere, with areas that may get down to 20 - 25ft deep.

In these type of pits, as you probably know, they are usually quite weedy. Perhaps what you don't know is that most species of weed will only grow up from a maximum depth of 10 ft. I say most, and that includes all the native species, because due to the aquarist trade and the importation of weeds from all over the world (now stopped) many have unfortunately escaped from the garden ponds into the wider environment. So there are those that can get down a lot further and if your water happens to have this vermin, it could weed it totally.

 

It has already been said bream don't like weed. I don't fully agree with that, but setting it aside, I'd say look for water 12+ft deep for the clear areas and bait and fish them them.

 

Wind on both pits and meres

There is no doubt in my mind this is the biggest factor in catching bream and with ever increase in mph, I get an equivalent increase in confidence that I'll catch. Give me SW strong to gale force wind, overcast and threatening rain, and it's my dream conditions. However, you need to be fishing into the teeth of it full on. On the meres, and the deeper ones in particularly, fishing into any wind is critical.

And the reason why is it tilts the thermocline.

Stratification only happens from late spring to early autumn and not during the winter. Fishing on the windward bank or as close as you can get to it, allows you to fish in the warm well oxygenated water. Yes wind adds oxygen to the water, the stronger it is, the more oxygen it adds through the wave action it creates An increase in oxygen, and particularly after a still period, stimulates fish to feed. Easily checkable with tanked fish, increase the air flow without the fish seeing you do it and watch them start to actively start looking for food.

Conversely, on the leeward bank the water from the deep can be brought up, that water is cold with very little oxygen in it.

Wind also brings to the windward bank lots of natural food, most invertebrates that live in the water column are very poor swimmers and get carried along in the wave orbitals (see link article 2 for an explanation of orbitals) towards the windward bank.

 

So to concluded where I started, on the meres the fish move about far more than they do on pits because the topography allows them to do this. Whereas on pits the man-made topography can work against them, forcing them to reside in certain area

phil h.

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Guest tigger

A very interesting post that Phil. I have to say what you say is right in theory, but things arn't always, don't always work like they should on paper when out putting them into practice. I hate fishing with the wind in my face lol.

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Phil, there's a lot more pages here in case you missed it (prepare for a long read!): http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/forums/Big-bream-t82897.html

 

What are your opinions about bream and undertow? Presumably fishing into the teeth of a strong wind there'd be significant undertow, especially on the meres which are fairly featureless. Or do you fish at a distance where it peters out?

 

Location is the real problem as you well know - and understnading undertow and how bream react to it is probably the biggest (currently unknown) factor that can help with (a) swim selection and (B) exact spot(s) to bait and fish.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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Sorry Phil, but I think you can forget about thermoclines on the pits we are talking about. They are of such varying depths that very little stratification ocurs.

 

Even on waters (ressies) with depths of 50ft any decent wind will mix the lot up, and surprisingly quickly as well.

 

Den

"When through the woods and forest glades I wanderAnd hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees;When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur,And hear the brook, and feel the breeze;and see the waves crash on the shore,Then sings my soul..................

for all you Spodders. https://youtu.be/XYxsY-FbSic

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Phil, there's a lot more pages here in case you missed it (prepare for a long read!): http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/forums/Big-bream-t82897.html

 

What are your opinions about bream and undertow? Presumably fishing into the teeth of a strong wind there'd be significant undertow, especially on the meres which are fairly featureless. Or do you fish at a distance where it peters out?

 

Location is the real problem as you well know - and understnading undertow and how bream react to it is probably the biggest (currently unknown) factor that can help with (a) swim selection and (B) exact spot(s) to bait and fish.

Andrew undertow is created by the wind/wave orbitals dragging on the line. The swash back from the breaking waves rarely ever extend out more than 20 yards. On the deeper mere it's what creates the shelves along with erosion through wave action and an increase in water height.

 

Most of the my fishing is done at 60-90 yds on the the meres on known patrol routes. At that distance it the undertow has gone.

On the pits because of their bed topography, it disrupts it and I wouldn't give it to much consideration.

phil h.

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Sorry Phil, but I think you can forget about thermoclines on the pits we are talking about. They are of such varying depths that very little stratification ocurs.

 

Even on waters (ressies) with depths of 50ft any decent wind will mix the lot up, and surprisingly quickly as well.

 

Den

Den I think you missed what I was saying about thermoclines I did not say they happend on pits as I know they don't. They happen on deep waters. As for good blows on resers mixing the water up, I have to disagree with you. I live in reser country and have fished them most of my life. And yes they stratify during the period I stated.

phil h.

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