Ultimate bobbin

[poledark]

Budgie....Sorry Den just checked what you was reffering to!!! No no one's been holding out on you! Sadly no 19's yet it was a typo like Anderoo said!!15 it should have been! I went totally off on the wrong tangent there! Jeeze what am I going to be like if ever I get to your age mate!

 

You will be a lot smarter and wiser :)

 

I did think it was a typo but as I don't by the mags and papers, I am not up to speed with big bream catches, and was under the impression that maybe only 3 or 4 over 19 had been caught?

 

Tinca, there are a lot of very experienced anglers around that find the idea that you need a 4foot drop to deal with line bites a bit strange. Carpers have to deal with them on an almost daily basis, and if the baitrunner is set right then even with the "normal" 12" drop the line slips off the fish. Having a 4foot drop only means that there is more line to drag before it slips off. What would concern me, is that this might actually INCREASE the likelyhood of the fish spooking.

If the rig etc is right, then the fish will hook itself and just continue taking line.

 

I should add (before it is pointed out) that I have never caught an SB, never fished for them, and haven't even caught a double, but I have seen a LOT of fish swimming in to line both tight and slack. The tight line slips off with no effect on the fish, but the slack line definitely causes SOME fish to spook

 

The other thing I have a problem with, is the obsession with wind (read that carefully )Am I to understand that the aim is to get a setup that is extremely lightweight, to such an extent that it blows about in the wind? I can't see that happening if there are lights and wires and weights added? And any swinger of 18" or more in length will be fairly "heavy" and if my testing is valid, then a swinger set low down will need more effort to start it moving, than if set at 90deg to the line.

 

As Phil pointed out, there is nothing new in any of the ideas in this topic, except maybe the "all singing, all dancing" Springlok

 

Den

 

Den

Edited March 27, 2009 by poledark

[tincatinca]

Budgie....Sorry Den just checked what you was reffering to!!! No no one's been holding out on you! Sadly no 19's yet it was a typo like Anderoo said!!15 it should have been! I went totally off on the wrong tangent there! Jeeze what am I going to be like if ever I get to your age mate!

 

You will be a lot smarter and wiser

 

I did think it was a typo but as I don't by the mags and papers, I am not up to speed with big bream catches, and was under the impression that maybe only 3 or 4 over 19 had been caught?

 

Tinca, there are a lot of very experienced anglers around that find the idea that you need a 4foot drop to deal with line bites a bit strange. Carpers have to deal with them on an almost daily basis, and if the baitrunner is set right then even with the "normal" 12" drop the line slips off the fish. Having a 4foot drop only means that there is more line to drag before it slips off. What would concern me, is that this might actually INCREASE the likelyhood of the fish spooking.

If the rig etc is right, then the fish will hook itself and just continue taking line.

 

I should add (before it is pointed out) that I have never caught an SB, never fished for them, and haven't even caught a double, but I have seen a LOT of fish swimming in to line both tight and slack. The tight line slips off with no effect on the fish, but the slack line definitely causes SOME fish to spook

 

The other thing I have a problem with, is the obsession with wind (read that carefully )Am I to understand that the aim is to get a setup that is extremely lightweight, to such an extent that it blows about in the wind? I can't see that happening if there are lights and wires and weights added? And any swinger of 18" or more in length will be fairly "heavy" and if my testing is valid, then a swinger set low down will need more effort to start it moving, than if set at 90deg to the line.

 

As Phil pointed out, there is nothing new in any of the ideas in this topic, except maybe the "all singing, all dancing" Springlok

 

Den

 

Den

 

Den,

 

I appreciate that there are some very experienced anglers who have made observations over a wide range of waters. I myself have fished fairly seriously for over 50 years and have have been reasonably successfull with many species of fish from many different types of water.I have in that time on occassion fished for big Bream (very unsuccessfully with a PB of just under 10lb) mainly on the Staffordshire and Shropsire meres including former a former record holding water which produced 2 bites for me over a period several years and numerous hours on the bank plus the odd attempt on some gravel pits and in more recent times a local mere. What I did find during that time is that there were great differences between waters that I have fished particularly where stock levels were low as was the case with the water which produced the record Bream on two occassions. One thing that was fairly common though was the amount of liners you got on the bobbins which was my main form of bite indication. A further problem is that I was regularly fishing on very soft bottoms which neccesitated long hook lengths and tails and by utilising long drop bobbins the thought was that the bait would be less likely to be disturbed and that the lack of resistance in the line would not spook the fish. Whilst I accept that you have had experiences which dictate otherwise, I still hold the belief that in most cases the lack of resistance helps. With regard to the effect of wind, the objective is to develop an indication system that is not affected by the wind and my own personal belief is that the best way to achieve this is with a swinger system. Regarding your comments about a long swinger being heavy it is, but it is about balancing the moments of force i.e. the relationship between clockwise and anticlockwise moments as for example on a beam scale. You are correct that a swinger at any point below the horizontal will require a greater force to move it as opposed to if it is set horizontal due to the vertical forces acting in relation to different linear lengths within the arc of movement which is why I think it is critical to have the ability to adjust the weighting both in front of and behind the pivotal point in order to acheive the best possible balance to suit the prevailing conditions. The one advantage that I believe the swinger has over the bobbin is its resistance to the effect of wind. Yes there could be a degree of sideways movement but this would be acting on a small area and if the pivot is free running I do not think this would seriously impede the movement of the arm. One could go to the nth degree and incorporate a low friction bearing with thrust collars but to be honest that is going a bit over the top. I am sure that if money and time were no object then the ultimate could be achieved but is this really what its all about. You are very much a thinking angler and I like I am sure many others always look forward to your contributions and indeed I have taken on board many of your observations. When I was a bit younger my old boss used to say to me there is only one way to do a job and that is the right way but remember that there are many right ways but as Budgie says there is a lot of fun and satisfaction to be had in trying to make your own and nothing exists that cannot be improved as you well know through your own efforts. I do very much like your planing/lift off feeders and I am also quite sure that they could work with Bream along with a short hook link although I must admit that the ultimate for me would be to catch an SB on the float.

Edited March 28, 2009 by tincatinca

[poledark]

Just a few more words about fish spooking on line. When I have been able to see what happens (usually fish cruising the margins, Tench and Carp) a tight line is simply brushed aside, giving the characteristic nod of the rod tip or bobbin/swinger. With slack line, and particularly with Tench, they will drag it a fair way and then seem to get irritated and react as if trying to shake it free. A few years ago,I spent a couple of hours at Larky 2 deliberately trying to see the effects of line. Of course I accept that I may have interpreted the behaviour wrongly, but tight caused no reaction, slack caused some of them to "give a wriggle" after dragging the line a yard or so.

 

When the fish were stationary,and under the surface, it was possible to lay the line on there backs with no effect at all, unlike when basking on the surface

 

This gave me a lot more confidence in how to fish close in to the margins and so I backleaded down with tight line, as oppoosed to my instinct to lay down some slack. I did catch an awful lot of very big wary carp doing that and on a highly pressured water where the carp "knew it all"

 

So maybe long drops and light bobbins/swingers show the liners well, it could be that they are counterproductive, and are simply showing you the number of fish that you spooked

 

As for the fun element in making your own, many a time I have returned from fishing and dissapeared into the workshop until the early hours with "a bee in my bonnet"

 

One of my favourite remarks is " just popping out to the workshop for a while"

 

Have you got that lathe humming yet?

 

Den

Edited March 28, 2009 by poledark

[tincatinca]

The other side of the coin is when the fish are feeding hard.There have been several occassions when I have had feeding fish in front of me when the bobbins have been going up and down like pistons and bumping into the line has certainly not had any effect in spooking the fish. The most notable experience of this was a few years ago fishing at a local mere where we had been heavily baiting a swim for several weeks with corn, rice and scalded maggot before fishing it one weekend. There was a reasonable stock of Bream in the lake at that time along with a huge eel population with sizes going up to low doubles which tended to show themselves occassionally as a small shoal of around a dozen or so fish. The main problem was the soft bottom, where you could lose a 20 foot scaffolding pole in 8 foot of water and also getting a bait in front of the bigger fish. To cut a long story short, the water in front of us was like a cauldron with numerous Bream rolling. The interesting part is that for a couple of hours in the late evening we were catching what we called the stockies with fish to around the 6lb mark with a couple of fish just over 8lb then it went quiet. At around 1 in the morning bobbin activity started again and shortly after I had a take and knew immediately that I was into one of the big fish (big for the water). After what seemed an eternity, I managed to get it off the bottom and eventually to the side where my mate was ready to net it.With the net half under the fish we could see that it was definately one of the doubles and then the hook pulled. At that moment I felt like giving up fishing altogether and could have thrown all my tackle into the water such was the dissappointment at the time . I had spent numerous nights over a period of several years waiting for that opportunity. The point I am trying to make here is that if the fish have got their heads down are competing and feeding hard they will not bother about bumping into the line. This water was also capable of producing double figure Tench and there was a couple of Carp in there which would have surprised a few people but it was a hard water where you were more likely to blank apart from eels than catch. I used to spend days not fishing but walking the banks with the polaroids and just watching the water through binoculars trying to make sense of what was there and many times thought that I had sussed it only to have my illusions shattered on the next visit. It is one of those places that has the magical element in terms of mystery and when it was a syndiate water it was great just to be there but unfortunately it is now run by a club that takes little interest in it which is a great shame.

[Anderoo]

Some confusion here I think!

 

No-one's saying that liners spook fish. Striking at liners is what spooks them. And if you do strike at a liner, that's your chance gone, not only for that session, more more likely for that season. Enough experienced big bream anglers agree on this for me to ignore them.

 

The longer the drop, the easier it is to tell the difference between a liner and a real bite. Short hooklengths and bolt rigs help but certainly don't solve it completely. When I caught my one and only big bream, it didn't take any line off the (lightly set) baitrunner at all - but the bobbin stayed up instead of dropping back. That was on a bolt rig, short hooklength and 3ft drop of the bobbin.

 

If people are happy fishing for big bream with short drops, and are confident in their ability to tell the difference between a liner and a bite, that's fine.

 

I know that Rich had a huge amount of fun designing and making his Mk I bobbins, and is enjoying improving them this season. Why some people want to discourage him or put him down for that is beyond me.

 

Closed season tension maybe?

 

tincatinca Posted Yesterday, 10:13 PM

One of the things that I have never understood is why there is sometimes an attitude which says done it, been there and got the T shirt. The reality is is that there is always room for improvement. Yes there are basic principles and designs that have been around for a long time but that does not mean that the end products are as efficient as they could be. I can certainly understand where there is a preference for a bobbin and in essence it is probably the most simple, efficient and straightforward approach to the task of bite indication apart from the wind element. I think that it is excellent that people explore different possibilities. (innovation and progress I think it is called) and are prepared to share their experiences. Yes you can have a bit of fun and banter along the way, but behind it are serious attempts to get closer to perfection and that is no bad thing. Everyone learns from experiences and develops their own preferences and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Thanks Tinca, I was thinking the same thing. Nothing stops an interesting discussion stone dead like 'I know all the answers'.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yes Anderoo I think thats definately where the confussion lies.Its always been my experience that the difference between a line bite and a true bite is easier detected with a longer drop so "false" striking isn't being continually done.

 

Den your observations on fishs different reactions to both slack and tight lines are very interesting.All though my main reason for using slack lines was to try and avoid liners in the first place (obviously without having to use back leads) I had always assumed that a tight line would spook any fish more than a slack one.No reason for that supposition really just following what was the kind of accepted line of thought. Youve certainly made me question that now. So why do you think its the accepted thing in carp fishing that tight lines going into a swim can scare them off? Or do you think weve got side tracked and it was/is just the fishing poressure that scare the fish out of an area and the tight lines just bein co- incidence? What have you found along these lines?

 

(sorry that this may seem a bit off topic but I think it may be important for a lot of other situations/species)

[Dick Dastardly]

The other side of the coin is when the fish are feeding hard.There have been several occassions when I have had feeding fish in front of me when the bobbins have been going up and down like pistons and bumping into the line has certainly not had any effect in spooking the fish.

 

Yup been there to mate. It was fishing a water where you would have huge shoals of 8lb+ bream over your bait that really made me think the way I do about bream bite/line bite detection/differentation.

 

Mind you the common tactic on that water (and other that were similar) was to cast out amongst the large bed of feed and just keep retrieving untill you stopped getting liners but still got proper bites.The idea being that you would then be fishing right on the edge of the feeding area and not disturbing the shoal with either false striking or playing back hooked fish through them.

[poledark]

No one is trying to put anyone else down Andrew, just having a sensible discusion about different ideas (experiences) and maybe offering some alternatives.

 

 

You have absoluteky no idea of the different rigs and leads and combinations that I have come up with over the years, and would not want to confuse anyone else or send them down that road . "My mate Ted" asks me two questions when we meet..."wot you 'ad then? " and "Is that the same rig as yesterday? "

 

Others come up to me and ask "New bobbins then Den?" always answered with a smile, and sometimes an explanation of what I am trying to achieve.

 

A thought has occured.....these Super Bream; I know some (if not all) were discovered by accident by carp anglers (and initially caught on carp tactics), but at what point do they take on the almost mythical status requiring different tactics/baits/rigs etc?

 

Incidently, the fact that I have never fished for or caught one does not make any of my thoughts invalid. Bream are bream no matter how big they are, same as carp and tench and roach. Good basic angling will catch them provided you get the location right.........................."it's not what is on the bank that matters, it is the last few inches in the water"

 

Den

[Dick Dastardly]

A thought has occured.....these Super Bream; I know some (if not all) were discovered by accident by carp anglers (and initially caught on carp tactics), but at what point do they take on the almost mythical status requiring different tactics/baits/rigs etc?

 

 

Den this is a point you keep making/question you keep asking.Either Im not explaining my thoughts on the subject clearly or you just dont agree with them! Im not sure.

 

My theory/thoughts is that they dont change at any point! its simply that true SB (as opposed to the ones that have got to the same enourmous sizes by eating carp baits) Its that they have always fed/ behaved differently (due to either the lack of competition,avaiability of food or whatever has created the enviroment that has allowed them to get to this size without carp anglers baits).

 

Is that any clearer mate? Im not so worried that you agree with me more that you understand what Im trying to say?!

 

Ive come to this veiw point based on experiences of fishing both types of water and catching on both "traditional" bream tactics and carp/boillie tactics.It could of course be that Im misinterprerting the facts but that the facts are there is IMO undeniable.

[tincatinca]

Cop Mere is a classic case of a water that had no Carp but produced the record Bream on two occassions to the same angler. At that time it was and had been a works club water for many years ie English Electric and GEC. Around Shropshire and Cheshire there were many meres but none produced the stamp of fish that Cop Mere did. Many of the big name anglers of that era fished the Mere but despite the high profile attention, the catch rate was extremely low although the Tench started to show more. The question is why did they grow so large. There were no high protein baits going in the water as the norm at that time was Drennan feeders over beds of casters. The original stocking of the Bream came from Aqualate Mere near Newport in Shropshire and I can remember as an apprentice at English Electric double figure Bream being taken in the early sixties in fact there used to be a picture on the wall in the local pub. There were very few places fishable from the bank and the more serious anglers used to fish from a boat against markers placed in the lake. There was a low head of Bream in the water and a lot of time was spent rowing around the lake where evidence of feeding was sometimes found where great trenches had been excavated in the bottom of the lake by the Bream. The lake also contained big Tench,some good Perch, eels and some Pike which rarely were caught in double figures. Silver fish were occassionally caught but were conspicuous in the main by there apparent abscence which was strange as the River Sow fed in at one end and exited at the other. I can only deduce that the water was very rich in food and that the Bream had no competition. I mentioned in an earlier post that in several years of fishing the Mere for the Bream I had two good takes and missed both of them. Since the closure of the GEC complex the water has been syndicated and I have not had any contact with anyone fishing it for several years but it had when I moved to Suffolk been producing some very big Tench and the odd Bream from a re stocking of the water. It is interesting how nature occassionally turns up a water like this with another notable exception being of course Redmire. Having said that, freelining for Carp was still one of the going methods at that time along with Herons, BJs PYM Sausage Rusk, Farleys Rusks, an Efgeeco Packaseat, Mitchell 300s and 410s from Embassy coupons, or Intrepid elites, allsorts from the local Indian corner shop and BT speakers not to mention a good supply of matt black paint.

Edited March 28, 2009 by tincatinca