Big bream

[Anderoo]

Cheers Andrew, at least I'm not alone.

 

Part of this thinking is from something I mentioned in an earlier post.

I've watch fish, (chub mainly, but other species as well), and one has approach the bait and repeatedly taken and rejected it, only to have another shoal member to approach it (just as cautiously) and then take the same piece without any hesitation.

I have watched this behaviour on too many occassions to dismiss it as unusual.

I assume that one of the fish found something it didn't like about the bait, (smell/taste), where as the other didn't find anything wrong with it for what ever reason.

 

John.

 

I've seen the same thing too. This is one of the reasons I'm going to fish two rods on each spot this year, with different baits on each rod.

[Kappa]

This would be especially noticed in small shoals of 6/8 fish like Wingham. In a shoal of dozens of fish there will be many such fish and multiple catches common, but with so few fish there might just be one or two, or even none.

 

It worth mentioning that Alex has had several repeat captures at Wingham. With my scientist hat on this could be explained by:

 

The bream are semi-resident

There are more gullible bream that get caught alot

Some bream really like Alex's bait whilst other don't

There is some aspect of the way these fish feed which suits Alex's rig - leading to hookups

There are far fewer bream than we think (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_and_recapture)

 

Rich

[Anderoo]

Yes, good stuff. I would say:

 

The bream are semi-resident - I think there's something to this

There are more gullible bream that get caught alot - yes, possibly!

Some bream really like Alex's bait whilst other don't - this seems less likely as the bream I caught was one Alex had caught before, on different baits

There is some aspect of the way these fish feed which suits Alex's rig - leading to hookups - I don't think this is the case, in fact I don't think the details of rigs are that important

There are far fewer bream than we think - very possibly! I have no idea but opinion ranges from 20-40 adult fish as far as I can tell.

[Kappa]

I'm still confused about the type of bottom is best for bream?

 

I know at Queensford they were taken on the top of gravel bars but then weren't these the only weedfree places?

 

So given the opportunity what sort of bottom are you looking for:

 

Gravel?

Sand?

Shallow silt?

Deep silt?

 

Rich

 

p.s. Does anyone know what bream like to feed on most? I reckon bloodworm is low on the list but maybe someone knows better?

.

[lutra]

Yes, there's quite a bit of 15ft deep water plus a few deep holes, two of which go down to 20ft and 23ft.

 

On featureless waters I can well imagine the bream going deeper. They may do at Wingham of course, but there they also have other options including in the shadow of cliff-like bars, into thick weed and under overhanging trees. I've several times seen the tench in the trees on bright sunny days at Wingham, and I've often caught perch in bright sunlight in the shade of the "cliffs".

 

I've also read of bream feeding on the surface during the day. I seem to recall this was on snails, and of course snails are often hanging upside down on the surface film in hot weather. Wingham is stuffed with small snails; in fact it's the only water I know where your feeder can come back not just covered with snails, but snails' eggs!

 

I find it interesting that big bream rarely feed in weed but tench do. There are several possibilities I can think of and I suspect others can add to them.

 

1) It may be that the food that bream prefer is more common away from the weed.

2) Bream may be able to feed more efficiently away from the weed.

3) Being largely nocturnal big bream may avoid weed at night as it gives off carbon dioxide.

 

Some of this may help with location, that I'm convinced is the key factor. You may be fishing anything up to half a mile away from any bream at Wingham. So if you're swim choice is wrong it doesn't matter how good your bait, groundbait or rig is - you simply have no chance of catching.

Thanks for that Steve. Like i said I think them deeper holes would be the areas i would look at in the back end of the season when the temp is dropping and they are feeding up for winter and also the most likely time to find them together, maybe all 40 fish in 1 spot who knows.

 

When it comes to feeding in weed i think bream are at a disadvantage with their tall shape and tench having a powerful bullet shaped body thats much better for pushing throw it. Cant be much fun for a bream to get half way in to some weed to find it has to back out getting the weed behind its gills. Thats my guess anyway.

[Anderoo]

Thanks for that Steve. Like i said I think them deeper holes would be the areas i would look at in the back end of the season when the temp is dropping and they are feeding up for winter and also the most likely time to find them together, maybe all 40 fish in 1 spot who knows.

 

When it comes to feeding in weed i think bream are at a disadvantage with their tall shape and tench having a powerful bullet shaped body thats much better for pushing throw it. Cant be much fun for a bream to get half way in to some weed to find it has to back out getting the weed behind its gills. Thats my guess anyway.

 

I'm trying to restrain myself from replying to every other post(!) because I know it must be annoying, but I would just like to say that I think Lutra is coming up with some very insightful comments. A lot of what you're saying ties in exactly with what little info I've picked up so far at Wingham

 

I'm going to take a back seat for a while now

[Dick Dastardly]

Once again Lutra your veiws have been kind of backed up by events at the water.One of the last catchs of last year came from such an area.

 

I definately dont think that brem will feed in weed.Could be several reasons but I think enough anglers have noticed this on enough different waters to accept it as a forgone fact.

 

Fenman mentions the moon.Only thing Ive ever noticed about this that is in my mind a 100% deffinate is that fishing during a full moon is a complete waste of time. No theories or any idea why but it has just proved this way.

[Fenman]

The moon, the moon, the moon......

 

I've been reading up on this and looking at all sorts of moon rise and set times, moon phases and, more importantly in my opinion, how long the moon is in orbit.

Now I am so confused all I can do is record times and days when the fishing is good (and poor) and check back to where the moon was at those times.

This is going to take some time, but when I've got some data, I'll be posting it so that other anglers can, hopefully, add extra data because I currently do not believe the predictions of the so-called experts.

So.........expect something around August!!!

[Steve Burke]

Most of the bream at Queenford and TC seem to have come from the tops of gravel bars. However, as Rich said, this may have been purely because anywhere else was covered with thick weed! Certainly at TC when one bank was clear of weed in a particular summer it produced fabulously well.

 

At Wingham we have large areas clear of weed due to treating parts of the lake with herbicide. Here all the bream I've caught have been at the base of bars or gaps in between them, despite often having one bait on the top of the bar as well. The latter though has frequently picked me up tench, including some good bags. However all the areas still had a relatively hard bottom - you could feel the lead hitting the deck. That's not to say of course that gravel pit bream don't feed on soft bottoms as well.

 

In his book Derek Quirk did mention finding small depressions on bars that contained silt, and he did catch on them. I certainly like the sound of these. Large flatfish areas of firm bottom also apparently produced.

 

In early season I'd definitely go for shallow areas as they warm up quickest. Late season I'd opt for deeper water but I'm not sure about the deepest holes. The few anglers who've fished these then at Wingham haven't done very well. However they might retreat to these holes to rest but feed in nearby water of moderate depth.

 

It's also interesting that Jim Gibbinson has had a winter campaign for gravel pit bream following accidental captures when carping. I seem to recall he caught in water of moderate depth. What was interesting is that the fish didn't move all winter. They might of course the following year - just like Peter Rogers and I found with the Wingham perch.

 

I find the observation about bream not feeding well at full moon, whether cloudy or not, an interesting one. Perhaps it's just as well that this year's Forum Fish-In and both the Specimen Group Fish-Ins are well away from full moons.

 

John's point about individual fish having different tastes I certainly go along it. It happens with carp and I strongly suspect it does with other species.

 

In his excellent book "Angling from the Fishes' Point of View" Barry Atkinson analysed scientific papers and had this to say about what bream eat.

 

"Main food 1) insects 2) plants

 

The bream's major single food is crustacea plankton (minute shrimps). The other 2 items in its diet are more interesting to the angler. They eat more insects than plants between Jan & July, and more plants than insects between July & December. The large fish eat more snails and mussels than any other single food. Autopsies show that bream almost certainly fast between November & January. They are shoal-feeders, i.e. they feed together and fast together. They feed in the bottom."

 

That was written in 1961, and so it may be that with warmer winters bream no longer fast now.

 

Wingham of course contains masses of dapnia, bloodworms, shrimps and, interestingly, snails. I think it was Peter Stone who also told me that big bream love snails.

 

Finally, Anderoo don't you dare take a back seat!

Edited February 6, 2009 by Steve Burke

[Kappa]

Thanks for that Steve, very interesting!

 

Rich