Swan deaths from lead weights - Fishing Ban demanded

[poledark]

After the SEVERE flooding on several occasions over the last few years I doubt if there is a single piece of lead shot anywhere near Bewdley.

 

Offering up the possibility that some has been washed out and subsequently eaten by a swan,is nearly as far fetched as Ms Harrigans comments.

 

Den

[ColinW]

After the SEVERE flooding on several occasions over the last few years I doubt if there is a single piece of lead shot anywhere near Bewdley.

 

Actually, I would think the opposite was true, the action of the floods would be to wash away the stones and leave the lead at the surface, a bit like the old gold panning technique!

[Steve Walker]

I think Vagabond might be able to offer an informed opinion on how shot would behave during flooding.

[Huge_Vitae]

Hello Posters, Not usual for me to visit here but an interesting debate probably viewed by a few 'guests'

 

Have read through all the posts and would make a couple of points.

 

Lead is a very broad term, far from describing a single member of the periodic table.

 

METALLIC lead easily forms a protective layer after exposure to Air.

 

Metallic Lead is used in the manufacture of many products including pellets, rounds and of course sinkers.

 

Metallic Lead does not occur very often naturally.

 

Lead can resist, even Sulphuric Acid, yet will be destroyed over a period of time by citric acid amongst others.

 

Chlorine in water is known to accelerate the toxicity of the element.

 

My house was built in or around 1836, The lead flashings around its many chimneys etc has been replaced several times since then as the lead has become too thin to do its job. In simple terms it has been eroded into the water course by natural occurance.

 

Lead has one of the highest 'half lifes' of many elements meaning it will remain with us for a long time to come yet.

 

'Lead Poisoning', a broad term is in fact a multitude of differing reactions. Lead ore also contains amongst other things zinc and arsenic. NOT present in Metallic Lead.

 

Historically, many areas were the site of Mining Lead as it is extremely prevelant. One should note however that a rich source of lead was, for many years North Worcestershire.

 

see The South Staffordshire and North Worcestershire Mining District and its Relics of Mining Appliances Lones, T E

 

You may also wish to note the location of Pewter Smelts as mentioned prior.

 

Happy fighting but as a wise old man said "Never argue with an idiot, he is an expert and will bring you down to his level."

 

EDIT; Sorry took me a while to find this.........

 

Exposure to metallic lead such as small lead objects, can rarely lead to an increase in blood lead levels if the lead is retained in the gastrointestinal tract or appendix.

 

Another edit then I am off to bed.........

 

Is This down river?

Edited April 3, 2008 by Huge_Vitae

[peterpikefisher]

it's the same lame excuse they used against the wildfowlers to ban the use of lead shot over wetlands in the UK

total BS in fact there are now more wounded waterfowl since the lead shot ban than were supposed to have died from lead poisoning

a shower of scaremongering to$$ers

we got to let them know before to many others jump on the ban angling band waggon.

 

some times i get really angry at these people i could strangle a maggot

Edited April 3, 2008 by pumphypete

[Ken L]

Exposure to metallic lead such as small lead objects, can rarely lead to an increase in blood lead levels if the lead is retained in the gastrointestinal tract or appendix.

 

From memory, this was Dick Walkers argument against a ban on lead shot. He reasoned that as lead quickly forms a stable oxidized layer on exposure to air, it would pass through a swann's gut without releasing any significant amount of lead compounds into it's body.

He was wrong ! He failed to take account of the fact that Swanns pick up shot for use as gastroliths (stones held in the grop that are ground together by muscular contractions to crush food) and the action of grinding the shot against stones in the chemical environment of the crop does in fact release significant quantities of soluble lead compounds.

[Neil G]

Anglers do harm wildlife, Swans etc..

We have all seen it, we should not stick our heads in the sand

We know anglers leave rubbish, we know anglers leave

Line and hooks. I have caught a swan and removed line and a hook from its wing.

I have seen ducks trailing line from there beak's

I have seen a robin dead hanging from a piece of line up in a tree.

Its embarrassing, but we have all mis-cast and left a baited hook in a tree out of reach.

We should do every thing possible to avoid leaving tackle and rubbish that can be harmful to wild life

I also pay a monthly donation to the Warwickshire wildlife trust as I feel it’s a contribution

to balance the books a little.

To say its not us is to say we have no impact on wildlife. Honestly ask your self if this is true

 

Very true and I think we all have to do our best to minimize our impact on the places and wildlife where we fish.

 

I always take home/remove as much rubbish & line as I can from the river when fishing....only problam is it always a state the next time I go down there

[Guest flempike]

I suppose nobody has had word from either the Town Council, Jan harrigan, the swan rescue center, or the Newspaper at all? Very interesting reading since yesterday. Thanks for all the scientific imput!

Are swans always migratory birds though? I guess the 'true wild' ones are, but the ones inhabiting parks and urban areas, are they migratory as well?

[Huge_Vitae]

From memory, this was Dick Walkers argument against a ban on lead shot. He reasoned that as lead quickly forms a stable oxidized layer on exposure to air, it would pass through a swann's gut without releasing any significant amount of lead compounds into it's body.

He was wrong ! He failed to take account of the fact that Swanns pick up shot for use as gastroliths (stones held in the grop that are ground together by muscular contractions to crush food) and the action of grinding the shot against stones in the chemical environment of the crop does in fact release significant quantities of soluble lead compounds.

I presume that 'Dick Walker' is a poster on AN, I believe I have read some of his posts, in this case I assure you I have not referenced any previous post on here in my post.

 

I am more than aware of the digestive tract/habits of Animalia/Chordata/Aves of which Cygnus is a small part.

 

To some extent you are correct that the vast majority of Aves retain 'grit' in their crop to enable the break down of food.

 

"Soluble lead compounds" is a quite relevant point. Lead Compounds are soluble in water it is a process known as Plumbosolvency. Water Authorities treat 'drinking water' with various compounds to reduce its ability to dissolve lead, they are however unable to treat a River to reduce its ability to do so.

 

Lead is naturally occurring, in some areas, such as the Severn it is abundant.

 

Consider this, (I don't believe it was authored by Peter Walker!)

 

An important feature of floodplain deposits is the spatial variability of sediment grain size. Study of the variability can improve understanding of the transport and deposition of sediments and particle-associated heavy metals. Heavy metal depositional processes are associated with those of sediment particles and these have been generally inferred from the surface and subsurface distribution of heavy metals in floodplain sediments, but have not been documented during individual flood events. Since subsurface distribution of heavy metals can be altered through pedological processes, deposits from a single flood event can give more realistic information on heavy metal distribution across the floodplain by floodwater. Prolonged heavy rainfall across the Severn catchment resulted in severe flooding in early January 1998. The floodwater left a layer of sediment (approx. 0.7 cm thick at the riverbank near the Severn channel) across the floodplain of the River Severn at Tewkesbury. This provided an opportunity for examination of heavy metal deposition and distribution across the floodplain and its association with sediment particles during a single flood event. Results of sediment grain size analysis show a pattern of decreasing grain size with distance from the channel. A sharp decrease at approximately 27 m from the channel was also observed and considered a result of transporting capacity loss. Results of heavy metal analysis indicate that Pb, Zn, Co and Cu concentrations increase with distance from the channel, but Cd concentration shows a sediment-related enrichment within a distance of 20 m from the channel. The correlation coefficients between grain size and heavy metal concentration show that Pb, Zn, Cu and Co are associated with silt and clay fractions while Cd is not significantly associated with any particular sediment grain size. Particle-associated heavy metals can be transported further away downstream.

 

Aves don't waddle along until they find a nice pile of grit unless it is provided for them in a domestic environment. They eat dirt and mud retaining the larger pieces.

 

It is a well known and widely reported fact, the majority of childhood cases of lead poisoning are from soil contaminated with Tetra-ethyl lead (CH3CH2)4Pb.

 

Now it seems to me that some have a couple of choices, Give up Fishing if you think you are/were/are likely to be the cause the problem.

 

-or-

 

In the alternate look to counter this apparently growing problem (despite the "falling" use of lead in Fishing, (being conservative here!)) if you care about the swans, ask your local council to provide oyster shell grit or similar at popular locations where the Wildlife, (NOT restricted to Swans as Ducks are the same amongst others that have a crop.) are fed by humans with a food which is not natural to them.

 

If you wish I can take you on another tangent and show how certain organisms naturally occurring in water have the ability to take up large concentrations of lead and deposit these in the body of some animals but not all, but then we would be comparing Chub and Goldfish, therefore going off topic,but evidencing the fact that neither are Aves and as such do not it seems, make a habit of searching out lead shot as an aid to digestion.

 

Hope this helps.

[poledark]

Sorry if I sound sceptical of all this "science" Simple logic tells me that after several severe floods spread over a dozen years, then any lead shot that MAY have been dropped/lost/discarded over 20 years ago would by now be so thinly scattered that just finding a single one would be almost impossible.

 

Yes, these scientists (?) may have found traces of lead/zinc etc in the sediment, I fully expect that if they came to my garden and tested the soil then they would probably find traces of the same.

 

Another thing, I have visited Roman sites a couple of thousand years old and the lead drainage and other items are still funcioning....I have removed lead piping and gutering installed in the 16th century and it was in perfect condition.

 

Many large historic houses have lead flashing/guttering which once again is in good condition and will probably remain so for a few more hundred years.

 

Den