Swan deaths from lead weights - Fishing Ban demanded

[Team Man]

I'd say we get and jan harrington and the veterinary clinic to join this discussion. I noticed also that people who do not fish, know literally nothing about fishing at all. Which will be the case here. I doubt she'd ever had a direct discussion with anglers at all. What do you guys say? Shall we? In case yes, I'll gladly contact her by phone or mail. It'll have to be tommorrow though, got to dash home.

J.J.

 

 

As long as no one gets abusive on here, I can't see any problem, I'm a great believer that if you have trouble with neighbors or anyone the best thing is "talk to each other"

[Steve Walker]

So are you saying it categorical is not Anglers who are responsible of the lead poisoning

 

I believe that current angling practice is not to blame. It may be that old lead left by anglers is to blame, but banning angling now will not fix that.

 

and if so what proof do you have?

 

What proof do you have that she doesn't secretly take these swans home and roast them for her dinner?

 

Flippant of me, I know, but the burden of proof is on he who is making the accusation. What evidence is there that anglers fishing there now are dropping illegal lead? She doesn't have any, all she has is swans with lead poisoning.

 

 

And no there should not be a ban on angling, but there should be some way of having a reasoned

debate with evidence from both sides being submitted, even if this lady is dogmatic and un-reasonable

we should be able to bring the issue to someone's table to make our case.

 

If you follow those links I posted, you'll see that she has been banging on about this for years and despite having it pointed out to her that there is no reason to believe that current angling practices cause lead poisoning she is still campaigning for a ban.

 

I am sure through her work she will have seen plenty of swans with hook and line injuries and will have plenty of

photos to prove it, I just wonder what us anglers will be able to bring to the table?

 

I'm quite sure that she has, but what does that prove? If it proves that angling should be banned, then away with it and we'll all take up golf. I don't believe that to be the case.

 

Personally, I don't think it's worth trying to reason with her. The people to reason with are the councillors.

[jonnychaos]

Would it be wrong in thinking that it may be Gun Shot causeing the lead poisening here obviously the wound heals but the lead remains and to be such a small number of birds its worth considering.

For Example, and I know it is perfectly illegal to shoot a Swan however, If a bird is shot at with the incorrect shot such as a number 6 or 7 mainly used for pheasents and pigeons then while in flight you are not going to kill a bird but Pellets will hit such a large target and stay lodged in for long periods of time. Any bird actually killed by a mistaken shot instantly is not going to be found as I am sure a shooter would never want to own up to killing a Swan. It is the same if you are using the Legal Bismeth or Steel shot used for Foul, these obviously when swallowed are not going to kill a Swan but if one hits they are.

 

All I am doing is adding another angle to this debate as I am sure Anglers get pointed out to much for such incidents.

[kleinboet]

FWIW I think you are all getting in a tizwaz. I suggest that the newspaper be contacted by e-mail ASKING FOR A RECEIPT that they received it, and saying that in the interests of fairness, they publish the anglers rebuttal and demanding proof. If the newspaper refuses to answer, hand it to their opposition (they would LOVE it!). If this lady cannot produce proof, demand a PAGE 1 apology from her - and the paper.

 

Fight fire WITH fire!!

[gozzer]

So are you saying it categorical is not Anglers who are responsible of the lead poisoning

and if so what proof do you have?

And no there should not be a ban on angling, but there should be some way of having a reasoned

debate with evidence from both sides being submitted, even if this lady is dogmatic and un-reasonable

we should be able to bring the issue to someone's table to make our case.

I am sure through her work she will have seen plenty of swans with hook and line injuries and will have plenty of

photos to prove it, I just wonder what us anglers will be able to bring to the table?

 

Well I and most of the AN members could bring many more photos of swans, without any angling related injuries. But what would that prove?

Should we bring photos of swans injured by power lines? Would it make any difference to her?

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't.

She is against angling...Full Stop.

 

The council on the other hand should be open to all possible causes. That is unless there is some reason for them not to....along the lines of chesters thinking.

 

John.

[medwaygreen]

Good idea Tony i have just sent this

 

I have just read the article were you accuse anglers of poisoning swans by leaving lead shot on the banks of the river or indeed in the river.

You are no doubt aware that for some twenty years anglers have not been able to use lead for fishing only in number 8 shot or dust which is very small, during a full season i may use no more than 10 of such items and all are taken home and this is the practice of most anglers.

I would very much like to see the evidence that you have base your claims on.

You will also be aware that there is a substantial amount of anglers who are also keen bird watchers and lovers and who are used as a great source of information regarding distressed wildlife and to come out with unfounded claims like this are going to strain that relationship.

Regards and best wishes.

 

No reply as yet.

[dant]

I once had a look to see if this problem of swans dying from lead poisoning occurred elsewhere in the world, and found that the incidence of lead poisoning in swans is widespread and increasing.

 

Often in remote wilderness areas where anglers never fish.

 

Locally 'experts' will look at the nearest possible local source and blame that.

 

So, in the UK it's angler's lead, in some areas it's hunter's lead shot, in some areas it's down to mining, and some areas down to boats using leaded petrol.

 

In the UK, where swans die with a high level of lead in their blood, it is assumed that it's anglers' lead weights that are the problem, but there are a huge number of other sources of lead in the environment.

 

But 'give a dog a bad name...' and it sticks.

 

Leon's post as usual makes a great deal of considered sense.

 

People not in favour of such things as fishing will always try and find 'weight' for their argument. The actions of a swans ill informed 'Mary Whitehouse' will not get angling banned.

 

I'm sure more can and will be done by fishermen in the future.. The line in the trees issue is a problem for fishing but a separate matter.

There's so much more to consider in such things as aquatic lead poisoning.

 

I found these few facts after a very short search on the internet.

 

For Humans:

 

'The standard for lead is 15 ppb (parts per billion). If drinking water has 20 ppb,it is above the standard. The water company will take action.'

 

 

' The water company is respon-sible for making sure that yourwater is safe to drink all the way to your neighborhood.

 

However,metals can get into your drinkingwater from the pipes in your home.

 

Homes built before 1978 may havepipes made with a metal called lead. Too much lead can be a problem for young children.

 

Your watercompany or landlord can help you find out if the pipes are too old.

 

You or your landlord may have to fix the pipes. Talk to your landlord If you rent an apartment it is difficult to know the history of the building.

 

Your landlord will be able to answer many of the questions that you have about your building. Here are some questions that you may want to ask your landlords.

 

When was this building built? Many homes built before 1978 may have lead water pipes. Homes built before 1986 may have lead solder holding the pipes together. Have the water pipes ever been replaced?

 

Has the water ever been tested for lead?'

 

 

 

If 15ppb is standard and 20 is above it I wonder what amount of lead the water in question as regards the swan deaths comes out as?

 

If too much lead in the water can be a problem for small children imagine what it can do to the waterfowl or indeed any other creature that inhabits it.

 

The area in question has more homes older than 30 years than most so more than likely, by proxy more lead water pipes.

 

Environmental poisoning as a result of sporting activities aren't I'm sure even on the scale of any industrial problems we've had in the past.

Edited April 2, 2008 by dant

[Tav]

The Bewdley Actinet website you hyperlinked is out-dated. For Bewdley Town Council use: http://www.bewdley.org.uk/bewdley-town-council/ and for councillors use: http://www.bewdley.org.uk/bewdley-town-cou...ontact-details/

 

The Wyre Forest Agenda

[phil hackett]

I post on here very rarely now but take it from me, someone along with others, who worked on the lead issue last time around. This is historic environmental lead. Smelted and defused lead particles stays in the environment for thousands of years, of that there is no doubt or argument.

As Leon pointed out there were, and up to a point, still are many sources. The main ones were lead in Petrol, lead in tap water, industrial processes using lead, anglers lead shot and lead from shooter.

From memory the figure per year for the shot industry was just under 3 imperial tons made and sold. The petrol industry would never say how much lead they used per annum. Someone at the time, an angler, who worked in the industry, stated publicly the figure was around 110 ip tons per year. I put that figure to the Petrol Manufactures Association and they did not deny it, or confirm it. So you can take it, it was somewhere close to the mark.

 

Lead from petrol entered the aquatic environment in two ways, airborne, settling out on plants and wash off into ditches etc. The second was from direct contact with the road surface from the tail pipes of cars, subsequently being washed into the storm drains and rivers where it settles out as particulate matter.

 

We could never get a figure on how much lead came from lead pipes. Nor how much was used by industry at that time and previously.

 

The lead from petrol along with all other sources is still in the environment and will be for a very long time and will continue to cause lead poisoning to any bird or animal that feeds in the bottom sediment.

 

As a slight aside here, a friend of mine, who’s a Uni lecturer, did some work on urban foxes and how they died. He was astounded to find that a large % of them that were run over had high levels of lead in the brain. The lead was bioaccumulating up through the food chain. All the foxes that had high levels of brain lead also ate a lot of worms, which were present at post-mortem in the stomach. His conclusion was that the foxes that consumed large quantities of worms in the urban environment were eating historic lead mainly from petrol. It was already known that high levels of lead in the brain caused neurological and impaired motor problems. The foxes became reaction slow through it and were more prone to be involved in road accidents.

The reason why lead in petrol was banned was because the same symptoms were manifesting themselves in young school kids who's schools were near to a main road.

 

Harrington has never to my knowledge acknowledged this evidence and constantly blames it on anglers lead because she has another agenda. She is the only one of the swan rescue people who fails to see or acknowledge that any leading in birds is now down to historic lead for where ever it came from in the past.

 

Also note she says “Leading” in the piece. No reference to lead shot being present in the gizzard at post-mortem.

Now why has she picked on Bewdley Council? Two reason - big old Des lives there, a prominent angler nationally, and what a scalp to have fishing band on his doorstep. And the make up of the council, note the party “Health Concern”. Perhaps she thinks that health concern with extend into swans?

Edited April 3, 2008 by phil hackett

[Guest flempike]

Very interesing reading, Phil.

I have invited Jan Harrigan to join us for this discussion. Let's see if she does.

Best Regards,

J.J.