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21 hours ago, BoldBear said:

I totally agree with Ken, location is the key as if the swim is devoid of fish you can’t catch them no matter what bait you are using 🙂 but having a flavour for Chub to home in once you’ve found them often gives you an advantage even more so in coloured water and very cold conditions.

I cant choose a single flavour as it depends largely on the water I am fishing and what works best on one river may not work quite as good on another river or stream.

Oops! When I wrote ‘Bread spice’ I actually meant ‘Bun Spice’ and the one I use comes as liquid in a small bottle which I dilute and put into a small spray bottle to spray onto my bait.

You can buy it on the web and here are a couple of links to some:

Indian Bun Spice

Bun Spice

I used to buy it from Geoff Kemp and I still have an old bottle somewhere.

Occasionally I also mix it with a pineapple flavouring to flavour boilees for Carp but the Bun Spice is quite strong so use It sparingly.

Keith

Thanks, Keith, you are obviously quite seriously into flavours and I am not sure how successful I will be just dabbling. But I went into the fishing shop today and bought some worm extract. I don't know if you've tried this? I'm hoping it will have broad appeal!

On reflection one obvious mistake I was making was using (unflavoured) liquidised bread for feed. Fairly obviously in coloured conditions a flavoured groundbait would be preferable.

I also discovered in the fishing shop that they sell sprays with flavouring, though the helpful guy in the shop advised against spraying the hook bait specifically as it might be too strong - similar to your advice I think. But next time in I'll buy one to spray my maggots.

So thanks for your help.

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john clarke

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19 hours ago, Ken L said:

For pike, I would forget lures and wobbled deadbaits.

I've had a fair bit of success with sea deadbaits fished hard on the bottom with float ledger gear in flood conditions by fishing the aforementioned lock cuttings and stream mouths.

My local angling association doesn't allow livebaiting but I've seen enough big swirls in flooded lock cuttings to give serious consideration to a shallow fished livebait where it's allowed.

This really shouldn't come as a shock because the predators will follow the bait fish and either can reasonably be considered as an indicator for the presence of the other.

 

Thanks, Ken. I'm interested that the dead baits were fished hard on the bottom, but you recommend the live baits should be shallow. I guess the basis for this is that the swirls were obviously near the surface, but even so it's counter-intuitive that one bait should be as low as possible  but the other high up. Did you ever use flavourings for the dead baits? I imagine it may not be needed, as you'd expect pike, with their strong sense of smell, would smell a deadbait anyway?

john clarke

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13 hours ago, Phone said:

All,

To some degree high turbidity is a common part of the equation in decision making primarily because of geography.

I mention this only because rarely on AN do we discuss the importance of a species lateral line sensitivity. Example: pike are sight feeders. The lateral line comes into play in "coloured" (I don't know this word) water. It is true motion and vibration become the key strike indication in these conditions.

For most of your coarse fish it would be a good idea to brush up on cyprid lateral lines by species (which will determine the feeding response and bait choice, especially flavour choices).

I cannot over emphasize the importance of the lateral line in ANY water condition

Phone

Phone, I don't doubt the lateral line is important, but how have you made use of this info in practice? It's doubtless because of the lateral line that lure manufacturers try to persuade us to buy lures that rattle specifically for coloured water, but Ken L is a very experienced lure angler and I am interested that he doesn't rate lure fishing for coloured conditions, but favours deadbaits which presumably rely on smell. But maybe you have different experience, maybe from bass fishing?

john clarke

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6 hours ago, The Flying Tench said:

 But I went into the fishing shop today and bought some worm extract. I don't know if you've tried this? I'm hoping it will have broad appeal!

I used to use "Ace Worm Extract." I used to mix it in small quantities into the groundbait that I used to plug an open ended feeder. I always felt it was worthwhile.

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Tench,

The lateral line, as you suggest, is lure oriented in todays angling. But it is equally important to baits, flavors and presentation. Since the reasons are quite different this post will deal, for the most part, with SIGHT feeding predators today.

Predators can determine the size, speed, direction and perhap even the species of an active moving fish just from its hydrodynamic trace with this6thsense. Hydrodynamic trace is the pressure wave generated by movement. For the lateral line sense to be work, either the fish, the object it is detecting or both must be moving. Amazingly the lateral line system also enables a fish to detect motionless objects by the movement of the water being deflected by that object. Typically, the maximum distance from the source at which the fish could perceive the prey does not exceed one body length.  This is (can be) enhanced with added motion and sound.

Although the lateral line can contribute significant information for prey localization, due to its short range of a body length it is evident that other systems are important in locating distant prey.

Extensive interactions with the environment complicate the analysis but in truth there has been more research over the last 20 years than ever before.

The lateral line is basically THE FISH inner ear. Think how YOU listen to and hear music.

 

MORE LATER

Phone

I forgot IMO In Colorued  Water conditions, I recommended to use dark colors like black, blue, black neon, slightly larger than normal

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20 hours ago, ayjay said:

I used to use "Ace Worm Extract." I used to mix it in small quantities into the groundbait that I used to plug an open ended feeder. I always felt it was worthwhile.

That's interesting. In what sense was it worthwhile? Was it simply that you clearly caught more fish in total, or something else?

john clarke

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It's odd, but where vision is limited, there are two options:

Tracking down baits on the bottom by smell.

Hunting actively in the one part of the water where enough light is penetrating to hunt visually - the surface, which is where bait species like bleak are anyway.

Species caught in 2020: Barbel. European Eel. Bleak. Perch. Pike.

Species caught in 2019: Pike. Bream. Tench. Chub. Common Carp. European Eel. Barbel. Bleak. Dace.

Species caught in 2018: Perch. Bream. Rainbow Trout. Brown Trout. Chub. Roach. Carp. European Eel.

Species caught in 2017: Siamese carp. Striped catfish. Rohu. Mekong catfish. Amazon red tail catfish. Arapaima. Black Minnow Shark. Perch. Chub. Brown Trout. Pike. Bream. Roach. Rudd. Bleak. Common Carp.

Species caught in 2016: Siamese carp. Jullien's golden carp. Striped catfish. Mekong catfish. Amazon red tail catfish. Arapaima. Alligator gar. Rohu. Black Minnow Shark. Roach, Bream, Perch, Ballan Wrasse. Rudd. Common Carp. Pike. Zander. Chub. Bleak.

Species caught in 2015: Brown Trout. Roach. Bream. Terrapin. Eel. Barbel. Pike. Chub.

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All,

To some degree I want to agree with KEN. 

In addition to the lateral line fish, especially predators, rely of a function of vision. I'm not going to apply a great deal of effort other than simply mention the science. In angling we use the term EDGE. Edge in simple terms is a boundary. Fish rely on edge or at least recognize edge as a interregnal part of the interpretation of prey. PREDATORS do not see the entire lure or bait but rather they see edges.

KEN, it seem to me, is trying to eliminate the bottom as a boundary - which makes sense.

Much like the lateral line, the more you understand about "edge" or boundary the more luck you will have. The same can be said for how you get to the other side of a tree - you don't see the whole tree - but you use the edge

Phone

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On 12/18/2020 at 7:54 PM, The Flying Tench said:

That's interesting. In what sense was it worthwhile? Was it simply that you clearly caught more fish in total, or something else?

It's a long time ago, so exact details are sketchy in my memory, but I do remember that the first couple of times I used it (in known swims) my results were better than expected, more bites sooner and more fish caught as a result, and I just carried on using it as an additive to my groundbait mix. I only used about 5mm in a half pint of water to mix the groundbait: (groundbait just damp enough to hold together when compressed in the end of the feeder).

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