Possible answer to deep hooking

[lutra]

Lutra, I have crushed the barbs on two of each hook

Sorry Den, I wasn't looking properly.

[poledark]

Lutra, I only squashed the barbs after taking the pics , so nowt wrong with your eyes

 

Dodgy weather today, actually bl###dy atrocious. I went to same swim where I had 4 and lost 3 last wednesday, howling gale and rain lashing into my face, so brolly set up back to the lake. Problem..can't see the floats, After 10 mins I change tactics and put a 2oz running lead on each and tighten up to a light bobbin. Cup of coffee.

 

Still not happy; trouble was I have to put the baits in channels in the weed and these channels are only a few feet wide. With the float setup I can tell whether I have hit the spot because the float half cocks, with the lead on I am not sure. I am getting battered and don't want to mess about with a marker, so I remove the leads and simply freeline the baits. Even if I miss the channel, the baits will rest on the weedbed. Put my lightest bobbins on and "tighten" up.......great stuff.

 

4pm, the LH rod beeps, bobbin lifts,drops back a bit, lifts again so I struck, felt the fish, and then it was gone

 

And that was it................

 

At least I know my light bobbins will not drag the freelined bait, and will hold for indication, so I learnt something

 

Den

[Andy Macfarlane]

Keep us informed.

[AndyY]

Been doing a bit of piking this week, had 9 up to 13lbs so well pleased. Also lost 4 or 5, probably due to striking to early.

 

I was using half herrings with a large single thro' the tail or head and a No 4 semi barbed treble about 4" below.

 

I have a dread of deep hooking so always strike as soon as I see the float move, (hence some missed fish) but one take went while I was having a pee and would have been deep hooked except that the big single had caught in the scissors and this prevented the treble and bait being swallowed.

 

This has got me wondering; if I were to whip a single (or treble) upside down to the top hook (a single) it may/should prevent the trace from being swallowed, as this would almost certainly catch on the mouth on its way in.

 

Here is a little sketch...

 

 

 

 

Den

 

 

why change your trace why not just hook yer bait in the head instead of the tail gona make it harder for the pike to swallow bait head first heres the reasons why ( this is from another forum where someone suggested using singles)

 

heres how i fish and i'm not recommending it to anyone. I hook my baits the wrong way round hooked in the head and not the tail with the other treble hooked on the flank I ALWAYS STRIKE MY RODS EARLIEST POSSIBLE. reason being if a pike has moved the line enough to set off yrer alarm then it gona have at least one treble in its mouth.

 

I also believe this way of hooking makes it near impossible to deep hook a pike as if a run is left to long and the pike turns the bait which it will always turn to swallow head first picture it in yer head the swivel end of the trace is gona be pullin against the pikes scissors (effectively needin to be folded 180 degrees) as it turns the bait creatin resistance (possibly enough for pike to drop bait) which we all know pike dont like if it hooke tail first n the pike turns it head first its then moving the swivel end of the trace towards the front of its mouth no reistance nothing as natural as could be.

 

also if hooked in the head if it succesfully turns the bait the hooks gona be facing the wrong direction ie points facing towards the gut so they may just catch n stop the bait traveling farther down a pikes throat especially with smaller fish ive noticed the trable from the flank almost always catches on the outside of the pikes mouth stopping the trace from being swallowed whereas if hooked i the tail n succesfully turned it gona slide down like a bita spaghetti.

 

also wi the hooks facing the wrong direction when u strike yer more likely just to pull the hooks free from the pikes mouth as the hooks would need to turn before they can catch in. if this happens n ye miss yer fish it yer own fault for striking to late n allowing fish to turn yer bait yes u still mish fish striking early but chances are the missed fish will return a short time later so basically it is in the PIKES INTEREST that ANGLERS LEARN to strike EARLY.

 

to me this is the simplest answer to avoid deep hooking after all its just turning yer bait round n striking ASAP.

 

{edit note: some blank lines added to make easier reading. Newt}

[poledark]

Andy, thanks for the lecture, but my little drawing shows a HALF herring.....the TAIL half.

 

I could of course do you one of the HEAD half, which would be hooked thro the head.

 

I repeat what I said earlier, I have seen and helped a lot of anglers to unhook deep hooked fish, not always very deep, but deep enough and often enough to make some attempt to avoid the problem, and having shown the rig at a PAC meeting tonight, I am encouraged to continue to use it.

 

 

Den

[Dick Dastardly]

Sorry Andy (especially as its your first post!) but what you write is the ****** Ive been against for years, Simply the "instant strike" isnt infallible.Too much emphasise on it often (In my experience) detracts from the real issue of learning to deal with the techniques required to unhook a deep hooked fish.Something that no matter how quickly you strike,how good your indication is or how dillegent you are can still happen.

 

Now Im not for one minute sugesting that the things you reccomend wont help minimise deep hooking neither am I saying that deep hooking is ok.

 

Dens not an all out piker but he is a very very experienced angler and some what of an inovater.Even if he had only pike fished 12 times every winter he would have still pike fished more in his life than most ever will!

 

Ive never felt the need for myself to change the rigs or way Ive fished for some years now,I dont really think Dens new rig will be the "Wonder rig" but I would be a fool not to watch with interest,Its people like Den who try something a bit different that advance angling.Doesnt matter how many attempts fail.

 

My biggest problem with the "Instant strike" mantra is that I have met many many "experienced" pikers who cry this but dont actually practice it! Begginers also think there is no need to learn good unhooking techniques as all they have to do is instant strike! Not only have we the problem of the fluke swallow on the spot pick up but the fallibility of human nature.By that I mean after a few instant strikes result in missed fish/lost fish the temptation to start delaying the strike sets in (Ive no problem with a correctly delayed strike by the way) its just when they dont get it right they then dont have the knowledge to sort the "problem" out.

 

Allthough I admire your wish to promote pike welfare (and I hope that is your intention other than to just look PC) it pays to look at things closely and be prepared to base things/change things in the face of practical experience,

 

One question why do you think a head section is any less likely to be swallowed than a tail section? (sorry just re rerad your post and realised I mis read this bit)

 

"it is in the PIKES INTEREST that ANGLERS LEARN to strike EARLY."

 

No for me its

 

"it is in the PIKES INTEREST that ANGLERS LEARN to HANDLE and UNHOOK them PROPERLY"

Edited November 14, 2008 by BUDGIE

[AndyY]

Sorry Andy (especially as its your first post!) but what you write is the ****** Ive been against for years, Simply the "instant strike" isnt infallible.Too much emphasise on it often (In my experience) detracts from the real issue of learning to deal with the techniques required to unhook a deep hooked fish.Something that no matter how quickly you strike,how good your indication is or how dillegent you are can still happen.

 

Now Im not for one minute sugesting that the things you reccomend wont help minimise deep hooking neither am I saying that deep hooking is ok.

 

Dens not an all out piker but he is a very very experienced angler and some what of an inovater.Even if he had only pike fished 12 times every winter he would have still pike fished more in his life than most ever will!

 

Ive never felt the need for myself to change the rigs or way Ive fished for some years now,I dont really think Dens new rig will be the "Wonder rig" but I would be a fool not to watch with interest,Its people like Den who try something a bit different that advance angling.Doesnt matter how many attempts fail.

 

My biggest problem with the "Instant strike" mantra is that I have met many many "experienced" pikers who cry this but dont actually practice it! Begginers also think there is no need to learn good unhooking techniques as all they have to do is instant strike! Not only have we the problem of the fluke swallow on the spot pick up but the fallibility of human nature.By that I mean after a few instant strikes result in missed fish/lost fish the temptation to start delaying the strike sets in (Ive no problem with a correctly delayed strike by the way) its just when they dont get it right they then dont have the knowledge to sort the "problem" out.

 

Allthough I admire your wish to promote pike welfare (and I hope that is your intention other than to just look PC) it pays to look at things closely and be prepared to base things/change things in the face of practical experience,

 

One question why do you think a head section is any less likely to be swallowed than a tail section? (sorry just re rerad your post and realised I mis read this bit)

 

"it is in the PIKES INTEREST that ANGLERS LEARN to strike EARLY."

 

No for me its

 

"it is in the PIKES INTEREST that ANGLERS LEARN to HANDLE and UNHOOK them PROPERLY"

 

Hi i do agree with u to an extent and if the trace which seems a very good idea works then great.

 

budgie (Ive no problem with a correctly delayed strike by the way) neither do i from experianced anglers not beginners as to do it correct takes experience.

 

the thread was about a possible answer to deephooking well if people want to try it i think i gave u one. safe unhookin practices has been publicised for years yet i still have to remove endless amounts of other peoples traces from fish. if they fish my way to begin with chances are they will land a few fish not deephooked givin them invaluable pike handling skills so that by the time they get that unfortunate deephooked fish there confidence and handling of pike should have improved somewhat with the pike then having a greater chance of survival wherteas if they go out first trip hook a bait through tail root leave the run a little longer bang first fish deephooked mmmm not a good start eh.

 

i do let runs go from time to time i done this to try my hook setup thats how i know the front treble catches on the outside of a smaller fish and any other fish i simply pulled the hooks free missing the fish completely. i know i may have put pike in un neccesary risk but im totaly confident with my unhooking

 

so if yer a beginner n want to reduce the chances of deephooking use a full bait n hook it in the head catch fish safely n get used to handling them then i believe u be better prepared for any unfortunate situations

[Andy Macfarlane]

Sorry Andy (especially as its your first post!) but what you write is the ****** Ive been against for years,

 

Budgie, that's not a particularly warm welcome and you don't normally swear, even if it is hidden behind a rack of *s. You and Andy are both very competent anglers and I'm certain you can both discuss this without telling him his opinion is the ***** you've been against for years. At no point did he actually say anyone should strike instantly (early as possible I think he said), nor did he say anyone should try what he's suggesting. His input is just as important as yours, Dens or anyone else's.

Although I myself reserve judgement on his hooking arrangement, I trust that Andy can cope with any unhooking situation that might arise. I might not always agree with Andy but I always listen to his opinion and I would never tell his ideas are *****. You tell him Den is an innovator of new ideas and you'd be a fool not to watch with interest. I'd say the very same thing of Andy.

I fish with Andy on a weekly basis and he is without doubt, one of the best anglers I know and I'm not just saying that because he's my mate. It's because he's bloody good at what he does.

I just think you were a bit rough. Same with Den. I don't think Andy was lecturing anyone. His input is welcome or it isn't and neither of your opening statements would suggest his are.

That's my opinion.

[poledark]

Andy, yes I was a bit rough, but telling me I should hook my baits thro the head as an answer to deep hooking is rubbish. Same as the earlier post that said pike flare their gills and swallow baits. Sometimes they do, sometimes hooking through the head (if you use a whole or head half) they also swallow on the spot. The tail halves I use also get swallowed thick end (head? ) first, most of last weeks fish had done exactly that. I do also use the head halves as well

 

I can see Andys point about the pike turning the bait and swallowing head first, trouble with that is that I have had them do the opposite!

 

My thoughts were on the lines that if you had a set of hooks facing each way, then one of them will stop the pike swallowing the rig, no matter how you hook the bait, or how big it is, or which half you happen to be using at the time.

 

I have to say, that when I have shown pikers the idea, they have been in one of two camps, either shown some interest and given it some thought/input, or immediately dismissive with the words, "I never get a problem with deep hooked fish".

Lucky fellows!

 

 

As for my testing,been a disaster this week. I mentioned the missed take on Monday probably due to me not reading the indication properly and striking to early. Not had a pickup since tried a different lake, reputed to hold big pike, and did 3 blanks on the trot. Late last evening I got a bit of interest which were almost certainly eels, but I had to strike "just in case". Baits had no teeth marks, but bits had been nibbled out of them.

 

Hey ho, got to wait till Monday now, I will be going on an easy lake

 

This is where I blanked on Friday..looks pedunkle though

 

 

What on earth is a pedunckle?

 

Den

Edited November 15, 2008 by poledark

[AndyY]

Well I have tied up some traces and will give them a try out this week....

 

 

The single I will hook thro the tail (half herring) and both the trebles I will hook in the flesh of the bait. The reversed treble can move under pressure, but only up to the single hook. I am expecting some fish to get hooked outside the mouth ? The single hook is fixed.

 

 

Den

 

so u say what im tellin ye is rubbish cool yer allowed yer opinion im not gona say ur trace is rubbish but the backwards treble u got just gona do same job as the 1st treble in my trace only my trace still gona have 2 free trebles to hook pike urs unfortunately only got 1 as the backward un which has its own use is now useless for hooking pike i know what method i will promote and use in the future in fact see how baitpacks have the diagram on back showin to hook a bait throught the tail if they turned that around to show a bait hooked in the head the numbers of pike deephooked by newcomers or the person just wanting to give it a go would be dramaticaly reduced within one season but im sure this is to simple an idea for people to get the grasp of hookin baits in the head DOES reduce numbers of deephooked pike I stand by this and will continue to promote this until someone give me any reasons other than its "rubbish"