Obama Reality - A Pretty good assessment

[corydoras]

To me that means an atheist has as much right to practice his belief system as does a Jew or Christian, as long as their beliefs don't harm others in the manner of Charlie Manson, Jim Jones, or the Branch Davidians.

How do you square that with this, state laws that let parents who allow their children to die because the parents believe in bronze age fairy tales get away with what is next to murder?

 

A little boy's ordeal

 

Of all the Oregon City cases, the ordeal of 4-year-old Alex Dale Morris stands out.

 

The boy first complained of fever and congestion on Feb. 28, 1989. He was anointed with holy oil while church members laid their hands on him in an attempt to heal him through the spirit of the Lord. They prayed for 46 days.

 

On April 14,1989, acting on an anonymous tip to state child welfare workers, an Oregon City policeman visited Alex's home. The officer noticed the boy was sick, but the child appeared well cared for and told the officer he was "all right."

 

Alex Morris died 29 hours after that visit. An autopsy revealed an infection had filled one side of his chest with pus. Basic antibiotic treatment would have saved him, said Dr. Larry Lewman, Oregon medical examiner.

 

"It was a horrible thing," Lewman said. "The kid was getting sicker and sicker for days and days. At times, the child would have been overwhelmed with fever and pain.

 

"In this day and age, kids don't get this stuff."

 

It's enough to make me sick to my stomach. You are meant to be the worlds Superpower, that reads like something that would happen in Chad or Nigeria.

 

They let that little boy suffer for 46 days, they let him die in agony. Do no harm indeed!

Edited November 11, 2008 by corydoras

[Newt]

That is precisely the sort of statement which is liable to alienate the US conservative christian right to so many of us. To suggest that a 'godless (secular) state' is or has to be 'communist' is patent childish nonsense.

Several problems there.

First - she is not a conservative Christian

Second - "Godless" and "secular" are not really synonyms even though you tried to make them so.

Third - "patent childish nonsense" is belittling and insulting and I have to wonder why you decided to use such a semantically loaded phrase. It often indicates the lack of any sort of reasoned argument.

 

As it happens, we have a secular government (www.uuscouters.org/glossary.htm adjective: a. of or relating to the worldly or temporal b. not overtly or specifically religious c. not ecclesiastical or clerical ). Various groups, including the rather loosely defined fundamentalist Christian right, large oil companies, conservationists, and others, try to influence policy but none control it except in that some elected officials support their views.

 

We considered the USSR "Godless" since they had made religious worship illegal so if you had wished to escape from Christians or any other group that worshiped a divine being, it was the place to be.

 

IMO, 'secular' is a good thing while 'godless' is just a little strange but indicates a place that wishes more control over what I am allowed to think than I am comfortable with. I don't currently own a firearm but I will not tolerate being told I can't. I do not worship any supreme being or attend any church but I will not tolerate being told I can't.

[corydoras]

IMO, 'secular' is a good thing while 'godless' is just a little strange but indicates a place that wishes more control over what I am allowed to think than I am comfortable with. I don't currently own a firearm but I will not tolerate being told I can't. I do not worship any supreme being or attend any church but I will not tolerate being told I can't.

Quite right too Newt. As a card-carrying ACLU member I would not have it any other way. To me secular means "Not specifically relating to religion or to any religious body". In Emma's defence it was Jan who used the secular=godless analogy in post 13. Edited November 11, 2008 by corydoras

[severus]

How do you square that with this, state laws that let parents who allow their children to die because the parents believe in bronze age fairy tales get away with what is next to murder?

Hmmm, isn't that the function of constitutional government, to correct arcane laws and loopholes that cause undue harm to innocents? You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that sensational news such as this is routine, widespread, and meekly accepted by the majority over here in the States. It is not. It would be just as easy for me to state that the Reign of Terror and Holocaust are the natural political bent of Frenchmen and Germans, however absurd that notion might be. And by the way, it is.

 

Sure, it was murder. Hanging's too good for the parents. But quite frankly I seriously doubt that I would have to dig very deep to find equivalent news over there in sunny France. Or perhaps even more outrageous. You don't really believe that all Frenchmen are stainless, do you? Or that they've achieved any sort of superior enlightenment beyond the ordinary?

[Guest Jan V]

Quite right too Newt. As a card-carrying ACLU member I would not have it any other way. To me secular means "Not specifically relating to religion or to any religious body". In Emma's defence it was Jan who used the secular=godless analogy in post 13.

WHERE is my post do you find the word "secular",⫸ Cory? I don't see it and I sure didn't edit the post to remove it. They are not one and the same and I didn't say they were.

[Peter Sharpe]

God has got bugger all to do with it. Christians, Muslims and Jews all pray to the same god, they just call him by a different name. I wish all three of them would get their silly bickering over with so that the 4 billion of us that don't believe in bronze age fairy tales can have our planet back.

Amen.

[corydoras]

Hmmm, isn't that the function of constitutional government, to correct arcane laws and loopholes that cause undue harm to innocents? You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that sensational news such as this is routine, widespread, and meekly accepted by the majority over here in the States. It is not. It would be just as easy for me to state that the Reign of Terror and Holocaust are the natural political bent of Frenchmen and Germans, however absurd that notion might be. And by the way, it is.

 

Sure, it was murder. Hanging's too good for the parents. But quite frankly I seriously doubt that I would have to dig very deep to find equivalent news over there in sunny France. Or perhaps even more outrageous. You don't really believe that all Frenchmen are stainless, do you? Or that they've achieved any sort of superior enlightenment beyond the ordinary?

If it is the function of constitutional government to correct arcane laws and loopholes I'd counter by saying that yours is not doing a very good job of it. I'd be more impressed by your argument if there was or had been some attempt to outlaw this practice once and for all by the Federal Government, but as far as I can see there is not. It has to be fought state-by-state by the likes of the ACLU and CHILD.

 

 

In some states this is still going on today.

 

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=22061

The parents charged with reckless homicide for praying while their 11-year-old daughter died of diabetes are the first people in Wisconsin accused of such a crime, according to a national group that monitors faith-based abuse and neglect of children.

 

At least 309 children have died in the United States in the past 25 years after medical care was withheld on religious grounds, said Rita Swan, executive director of CHILD Inc.

 

The deaths include Madeline Kara Neumann of Weston, a straight-A student who weighed only 65 pounds when she died from undiagnosed diabetes. Her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, told investigators she had not been to a doctor since she was 3.

 

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/...d_faith_healing

http://www.atheistsforhumanrights.org/child.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical1.htm

 

You'd have to dig real deep to find anything like this going on anywhere in modern Europe.

If it hadn't been for the French the US might still be a colony of the UK.

[corydoras]

WHERE is my post do you find the word "secular",⫸ Cory? I don't see it and I sure didn't edit the post to remove it. They are not one and the same and I didn't say they were.

I said in post 12

The US IS MEANT TO BE a secular state. That's what Establishment Clause in the First Amendment to The Bill of Rights states.

 

In post 13 you wrote

Because most "ordinary" Americans believe in a form of higher power of one sort or another. You want a Godless state, become a communist. Besides, you don't get a vote - we do.

If that's not implying that secularism ≈ godlessness I don't know what would be.

[Emma two]

Several problems there.

First - she is not a conservative Christian

Second - "Godless" and "secular" are not really synonyms even though you tried to make them so.

Third - "patent childish nonsense" is belittling and insulting and I have to wonder why you decided to use such a semantically loaded phrase. It often indicates the lack of any sort of reasoned argument.

 

 

We considered the USSR "Godless" since they had made religious worship illegal so if you had wished to escape from Christians or any other group that worshiped a divine being, it was the place to be.

 

IMO, 'secular' is a good thing while 'godless' is just a little strange but indicates a place that wishes more control over what I am allowed to think than I am comfortable with. I don't currently own a firearm but I will not tolerate being told I can't. I do not worship any supreme being or attend any church but I will not tolerate being told I can't.

 

 

As Cory has pointed out 'I' didn't suggest nor introduce the notion of godless and secular as being the same.

 

It doesn't matter not whether she identifies as a 'conservative christian' or not, the statement that the alternative to godless is communism is simply an inaccurate. It is more worrying that she isn't a christian conservative, and yet still holds an opinion like that.

 

I belive that I have demonstrated the abillity to present reasoned a argument, I could fill the webspace of this site with evidence to support my case, for years my ability to present a case supported by evidence provided me with my living. However ultimately one has to speak plainly when the 'fancy words' fail to get through.

 

Your comment...

'godless' is just a little strange but indicates a place that wishes more control over what I am allowed to think than I am comfortable with.

 

I find quite astounding, given that what I find uncomfortable is the amount of intrusion on mind mind body and action that the proponents of dogmatic religion would impose upon us given their way.

 

I think that this thread is highlighting the discursive differences between the US and Europe when it comes to the relationship between church and state. As has been pointed out (Cory) the old stable European democracies have to a large extent negotiated a healthy seperation of the two. Compared with the US where political opponents loudly proclaim to be as holy as their opponents. Blair for example only 'came out' about the extent and depth of his faith well into his terms of office.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Emma two

[Colin Brett]

Compared with the US where political opponents loudly proclaim to be as holy as their opponents. Blair for example only 'came out' about the extent and depth of his faith well into his terms of office.

 

Just shows you can still be a liar even if you class yourself as a christian.

 

Also you don't have to be a christian to lead a good life!

 

Religion::: Pah!!

 

But what do I know?? Jesus Christ was the son of God, not God!!

 

As for Obama, here's hoping he does do well, at least he's not in the pockets of the oil moguls!