Obama Reality - A Pretty good assessment

[DavyR]

But what do I know?? Jesus Christ was the son of God, not God!!

 

Ah, but Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all part of the same Holy Trinity, innit?

 

Very ancient idea, the tripartite deity.

[corydoras]

Ah, but Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all part of the same Holy Trinity, innit?

 

Very ancient idea, the tripartite deity.

Indeed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deities

[five bellies]

The US hasn't suffered a terrorist attack by al Qaeda since 9/11, but we'll get at least one during Obama's term.

 

We're going to lose in Afghanistan.

 

the first piont I believe is a piontless statement a bit like saying it will rain on Tuesday but not saying what one,you dont need the wisdom of solomon to work out that If any one honistly believes that the US is impervious to terrorist attack regardless of thier politics they are fools,I am very sorry to say far more blood will be spilt in the US before this ends they are long over due another atrocity as are we.this information is in the public domain. just look at our threat leval

 

as for losing in Afghanistan I not sure if any one discussing this today will be alive when the afghan situation is resolved.

 

A nuclear exchange in the middle east Maybe but no one realy wants ther precious oil Irratiated

 

Israeli Manovers with Greece they will be in NATO whithin fifteen years.

[corydoras]

We're going to lose in Afghanistan...as for losing in Afghanistan I not sure if any one discussing this today will be alive when the afghan situation is resolved.

AFAIK no army has ever been able to conquer the Afghanis. The British Army couldn't conquer the Pashtun when Victoria was on the throne, the Russians couldn't do it in the 20th century and I doubt very much indeed that NATO will be able to beat them in the 21st. Kabul is another Saigon, perhaps worse. It's like Singapore, Crete, and the Dardanelles all rolled into one.

 

Just my two bits worth, YMMV.

Edited November 11, 2008 by corydoras

[severus]

You'd have to dig real deep to find anything like this going on anywhere in modern Europe.

 

If it hadn't been for the French the US might still be a colony of the UK.

Nothing like that in modern Europe? Cory, I'm shocked. You stated earlier that you didn't believe in fairy tales, and now this. You've been reading too many French newspapers and perhaps watching too much Mission Impossible.

 

As for the USA being a colony of the UK, perhaps your'e right, perhaps not. But be absolutely sure of this and make no mistake, mister: France is a free nation today only because British, Canadian, and American blood was shed on her behalf. Don't ever forget that. I'll bet that's not part of the school curriculum there, is it?

 

Anyhow, I'm weary of your half-truth complaints about just how bad things are over here. You seem to have an activist outlook, so perhaps you should direct your ire toward your beloved France. It has so much to be humble about.

[DavyR]

France is a free nation today only because British, Canadian, and American blood was shed on her behalf.

 

And was a free nation in the first place only after shedding a fair few gallons from her own aristocracy/intelligentsia?

[Huge_Vitae]

How do you square that with this, state laws that let parents who allow their children to die because the parents believe in bronze age fairy tales get away with what is next to murder?

 

A little boy's ordeal

 

Of all the Oregon City cases, the ordeal of 4-year-old Alex Dale Morris stands out.

 

The boy first complained of fever and congestion on Feb. 28, 1989. He was anointed with holy oil while church members laid their hands on him in an attempt to heal him through the spirit of the Lord. They prayed for 46 days.

 

On April 14,1989, acting on an anonymous tip to state child welfare workers, an Oregon City policeman visited Alex's home. The officer noticed the boy was sick, but the child appeared well cared for and told the officer he was "all right."

 

Alex Morris died 29 hours after that visit. An autopsy revealed an infection had filled one side of his chest with pus. Basic antibiotic treatment would have saved him, said Dr. Larry Lewman, Oregon medical examiner.

 

"It was a horrible thing," Lewman said. "The kid was getting sicker and sicker for days and days. At times, the child would have been overwhelmed with fever and pain.

 

"In this day and age, kids don't get this stuff."

 

It's enough to make me sick to my stomach. You are meant to be the worlds Superpower, that reads like something that would happen in Chad or Nigeria.

 

They let that little boy suffer for 46 days, they let him die in agony. Do no harm indeed!

 

Pull in them reigns there Cory, methinks you are galloping away, slightly out of control.

 

I know that I am perhaps going to attract the accusation of "hanging onto somebodies shirt tails," but it seems we are all entitled to voice opinion and read into posts that which we want.

 

Perhaps this will help you with your understandable sickness of the story you quote.

 

Two followers of a fundamentalist Christian church that favours faith healing over conventional medicine are to be prosecuted for manslaughter after their daughter died of a treatable infection.

 

Carl and Raylene Worthington were indicted by a grand jury in Oregon's Clackamas county following the death of their 15-month-old daughter Ava in March.

 

The toddler died of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection, according to the state medical examiner's office - both conditions that could have been treated with antibiotics.

 

The parents, who surrendered to police on Friday, are members of the Followers of Christ, a fundamentalist church in Oregon with about 1,500 members. They were released on $250,000 (£126,000) bail.

 

The church was at the centre of controversy in the 1990s after the deaths of several children attracted the attention of the authorities. It led to the passage of legislation in Oregon that repealed the right to a religious beliefs defence in cases of manslaughter, homicide and child abuse.

 

Since the passage of the law in 1999, according to authorities in Oregon, there have been no incidents of child neglect involving the church. The Worthingtons are the first members of the church to face criminal charges for failing to seek medical attention for a gravely ill child. If convicted they could serve six years in prison for manslaughter and up to a year for criminal mistreatment.

 

In the case you refer to under "In some states this is still going on today." If you read the whole article it really does your argument little support.

 

The girl’s parents, Dale and Leilana Neumann, who do not belong to any organized faith, purportedly prayed over her, believing even after her death that she would be resurrected. They chalked up her death to their own lack of faith, said Vergin.

 

Also, if you have more understanding of such things, although I do not claim to be an expert on US Law, the defence you refer to;

 

state statute 948.03(6), against failing to act to protect children from bodily harm. It contains an exemption for what it refers to as " Treatment through prayer." To wit: "A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing … in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

 

Is, applying my knowledge of UK statute, similar to an offence of child neglect and not to one of Murder or Manslaughter, in the vast majority of cases, US legislation is far superior To ours and, IMHO superior to many Countries within the EU.

 

Interesting enough, the information is brought to us by a man who has written a book on the subject, in which he cites the defence to the lesser charge. WE do not know what offence the couple were ACTUALLY charged with, it would be interesing to know. I would suggest it should be "Criminally Negligent Manslaughter" but like I said, I am certainly no expert on US Law, nor indeed religion, Politics, Culture or anything else there because I do not live there nor know enough people who do

 

I knew a chap, many years ago who died of gastroenteritis, he was a very well read, likable man, he died because he refused medical treatment. He was a Christian Scientist here on the Island, I don't know how many of them there are here.

 

Child abuse is Child Abuse. Many wrong things are done to children in every Country on the Planet, WE do not condone it but it takes time for the average person to comprehend and then, take action against a VERY SMALL percentage of the populace.

 

Emma, as a matter of interest, what did you have on your dogtags?

[chevin]

It's true that they have, (They have also had well over 100 military women fatalities too) and went into Iraq specifically with a cringeworthy navity. The British took the experience of Ulster with them and fared better.

 

There have been many thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who have died as a direct result of Bush's immoral and illegal invasion of a country which had never attacked, nor posessed the ability to attack the US. His (and B'lairs) inpeachment and inprisonment would have a more honest approach than waiting for him to finish his term.

 

 

Actually, America's entry in to Iraq was not illegal. The documentation to allow their invasion existed within the UN and was currently valid.

 

As far as the morality of it all is concerned, I spent a lot of nights during the early part of my life in air raid shelters because Hitler's bombers were bombing England and, because of him, I never met my father until I was five. Hitler was a terrorist who was allowed to take over countries at will and the politicians of the day were too spineless to do anything about him. Had several countries joined forces in the mid-thirties and stopped him in his tracks, WWII may never have happened.

 

There are plenty of similar terrorists who, like Hitler, will gain strength and confidence from being allowed to go about what they consider to be their business. The longer they can get away with things, the closer we will come to another major war.

 

Personally, I don't ever want to live in a war situation in my country again and therefore I feel grateful to the countries and troops who are doing their best to prevent that from happening. Those who are so quick to condemn those so involved have obviously never had to cower in a partially buried air raid shelter in their back garden.

[DavyR]

Chevin, I understand the point that you're making, but comparing Hitler and Al Qaeda doesn't really stack up. You can't defeat an ideology by invading a country in which a small number of "terrorists" may or may not be hiding amongst a civilian population. I would have thought that the experience of Vietnam was sufficient proof of that.

 

The War on Terror has to be fought, but not by standing armies. Intelligence operations, conducted by under-cover heroes that nobody sees and who will never be publicly acknowledged for the work they do, are our best hope.

 

The reason that so many were against the invasion of Iraq was not because they were all a gang of appeasers and conchies. It was because they could see that, in the absence of a visible enemy that would stand and fight (even the Republican Guard largely "melted away") the most likely scenario was the one that the West is stuck with at present - a steadily mounting death toll of Allied forces, civilians, and a few "martyrs" to a cause that isn't going to go away as Nazism (mostly) did.

[Emma two]

France is a free nation today only because British, Canadian, and American blood was shed on her behalf. Don't ever forget that.

 

It has so much to be humble about.

 

It is inevitable in a discussion like this that someone would get around to the old 'we (USA) saved Europe cry, and its worth putting into things into perspective with th USA over its own opinion on its activities during World War 2. To many America's late arrival in the war is not something they should boast about!

 

America only began to send men into the war against Japan after Pearl Harbour, and the numbers and aid that America put into the world are pale in comparison to the massive war efforts conducted by Russia (who crushed Germany with 20 millions of ground troops), France (for its bitter, endless and determined self defence) and the UK. The UK's air force and special forces were consistently very brave and effective.

 

America did supply vast amounts of material goods, but it did not throw itself, or its soldiers, into combat wholeheartedly. America's most consistent aid was against the Japanese, and not until Japan attacked America directly.

 

The USA appears to be very self-glorifying, and there are multiple generations in the UK, France and Europe who upset and angry at America's rewriting of history. Russia's men, France's entire population, and UK's air force, were the principal opponents of Germany, aided by American equipment (which for example was loaned and leased to the USSR, not merely given), for which the allies were grateful, but not tricked that the USA did not have its own interests at heart, like all countries in the ideologically-charged political atmosphere of the time. USAs entry to the war was forced, not chosen, their motives were self-defence not world-wide good such as was the case with UK, and their effort was slow and half-hearted, public opinion only turned in favour of the war at a very late date.

 

So far as 'blood spilled goes' consider the following table,

 

Military deaths WWI and WWII

 

Russia 11.700.000

France 1.607.000

British Empire 1.360.371

USA 421.000

Edited November 12, 2008 by Emma two