Andrew Syvret
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Posts posted by Andrew Syvret
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Off topic, but another thing I remember were the pictures of Puffins, with pipefish hanging from their beaks. The point was being made that seabirds were taking them in the absence of sandeel, but they were no use for the seabird chicks. With all the talk of pipefish now, makes me wonder if as well as sandeel numbers being low, could pipefish numbers have been unusually high? I can't rember anyone suggesting that at the time though.
Pipefish population explosion will not save starving seabirds
15 August 2006
http://www.ceh.ac.uk/news/press/pipefish.asp
An unexplained population explosion of snake pipefish is occurring in the seas around northern Britain. But the abundance of these fish will not prevent large numbers of puffins, terns and kittiwakes from starving to death.
In a paper submitted to the journal Marine Biology, an international team of scientists led by Professor Mike Harris from the Centre for Ecology & Hydrology in Banchory, reports a dramatic increase in pipefish numbers over the past few years. Pipefish were once rarely seen in British waters but are now frequently caught in trawler nets, with numbers rising 100 fold since 2002, according to some trawl surveys. Even regular divers have reported unusually large numbers along some stretches of coastline.
Dr Doug Beare from the European Commission’s Joint Research Centre in Italy, said that climate change is unlikely to be the primary cause of the dramatic increase. He commented, “There have been changes in water temperature in the North Sea since about 1988 but large numbers of snake pipefish have only appeared during the last three or four years. These major outbreaks of previously rare species do occasionally ‘just happen’ in marine ecosystems and they can have a startling effect on marine food webs. Interestingly, they are often associated with very poor breeding seasons in seabirds.”
Professor Harris said, “ Only in the last 3 years or so have snake pipefish been recorded in the diet of many species of seabird, including puffins, terns and kittiwakes breeding in colonies around UK coastlines, and in Norway, Iceland and the Faeroe Islands. 2006 seems to have been a bumper year, at least in northern Britain, and there is evidence that these birds are turning to the pipefish when their normal prey are in short supply.”
Breeding failures at seabird colonies off the east coast of Britain are becoming common and are thought to be due to low availability of sandeels, their usual and preferred food source. The reasons behind this reduced availability are complex but include effects due to the presence of the North Sea sandeel fishery and climate change.
Professor Harris is pessimistic that the availability of snake pipefish will provide an alternative source of nutrition for the birds during their breeding season. “The nutrient value of the snake pipefish is unknown but their rigid, bony structure makes them difficult for the birds to swallow. There have been numerous sightings of seabirds flying around with these fish protruding from their beaks and chicks, in particular, have great difficulty swallowing them. Many young puffins and kittiwakes have been found starving even when their nests were littered with uneaten pipefish, and tern chicks have been seen choking to death, apparently unable to regurgitate fish stuck in their throats.”
Most pipefish are small and live among seaweed and other marine vegetation close to the coast. The snake pipefish is much larger and can grow to more than 50cm in length and it is these fish that live in the open sea. They are normally found in Atlantic waters spreading from Norway and Iceland in the north to the Azores in the south and eastwards to the Baltic. Close relatives of the seahorse, pipefish are long and thin with segmented and usually hard, armour-cased bodies. Like the seahorse, it is the male that cares for the developing eggs, keeping them in a brood pouch or attached to the underside of his body.
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Looks like the CEFAS website has been updated recently ~
http://www.cefas.co.uk/basstagging/default.htm
something new to look at at least.
Eagerly anticipating the full write up...
AJS
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Scotland should go its own way.
Pair teams included?
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Hello again Wurzel,
Good to know where you are coming from. Why worry whether the pseudo reasons stand up or not? To borrow a phrase from an earlier post of yours on this thread:I would like to see the back of them, I am just tring to point out the reasons given to ban them would not stand up in any EU discussion or what ever they do to decide these things.Both camps are guilty of cherry picking the bits of information that suits their cause, it's called politics.So I guess we both know that realistically, logic, fact & the false idol that is "objectivity" will likely play only a small part in any discussion in Brussels? Only a winter or two back I remember the inflated price of fuel being quoted as a potential disaster for the pair teams - threatening to put them out of work. The dolphin issue could similarly be considered a major political "diversion" could it not?
At the end of the day, like it of loathe it, the CFP charges States with making the socioeconomic "most" of their fisheries resources on a sustainable basis, we're all tied into the UN FAO's Code of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries, Precautionary Principle, and on... What those instruments are worth beyond paper is open to debate, but if they at least serve to benchmark what we should be aiming for, the winter pair trawl fishery for bass falls a long way short. I'm sure several (hundred) thousand inshore fishers across the UK, France & beyond would agree. A very few people benefit from the industrial fishery we both wish to halt. Economically it's nonsense - bass has been condemned as pig feed in the past and the prices I posted for farmed/lined/trawled bass are a graphic illustration of what is possible with "value adding" ~ urghh, excuse the Seafish speak. Anyway, you get the idea & know all this already. Personally I think anything is possible in politics - positive & disasterous. Everyday votes are what buy influence and thus policy. Consequently, most politicians are "affordable" in my book. And there's nothing more satisfying than beating them over the head with their own "strategic sticks". (Although I write from outside the EU of course.)
Likewise I've been chasing the silver ones for upwards of 25 years, on both sides of the argument at times. I've never towed anything but a lure or live bait for them though. I'm talking about the English Channel winter fishery, hopefully I made that clear previously - the Thames Estuary is beyond that surely? I take your point though - "your" fish may well be Channel fish at some point(s) each year. Working out their migratory/spawning habits is not easy without more research - maybe the as yet unrevealed tagging results will help? What we do know is that bass spawn in water 9degC and above, so I'm happy to accept there are many potential areas that suit them. But I'd wager these are still mostly "offshore" using our rough 12 mile definition. Doesn't seem too outrageous? Or does it?I don't doubt some bass spawn "local to their summer grounds" but could you define "local"? likewise please confirm what you mean by "a lot"...Well since I have been fishing for bass, 25 or more years, all the large female fish I catch between march and June are heavy with roe, once in a while the odd one will as you say be a spawner (running with the stuff) all male fish are running with milt,so by a lot, I could say that all the bass in and around the Thames estuary during April,May and June are spawning there, are you suggesting they travel from the SW aproaches then nip back to lay thier eggs and then come back again once finished, even doing the trip two or three times in a month?
FWIW I understand the reproductive physiology of male and female bass differs slightly - maturing eggs need so many degree/days to get to their final stage. By contrast a male bass is ready to go at a moment's notice once its testes are mature for the season and can stay in that condition for an extended period, perhaps going some way to explain why so many more of your males are "busting?"
to my mind the logic of an industrial scale pair trawl fishery for winter spawning aggregations of slow growing fish is akin to the logic of a farmer going out each spring and killing his prize bull & cattle bloodlineI agree, we said exactly that 20 years ago when they first started, here we are 20 years later, several thousand tons of bass later, and still no sighn of the stock diminishing, infact the scientist say it has increased, it is being fished sustainable they say.
There is no way I would be able to prove they have effected my catches.
ICES said the following last year: http://www.ices.dk/iceswork/wgdetailacfm.asp?wg=SGBASS
"The above analysis indicates that there are no problems with the exploitation of bass in relation to overall yield per-recruit or recruitment over-fishing in the North Sea, Channel, west coast of Britain and Biscay, though the population structure has certainly changed since data were first collected in the 1970s. In all areas, the high abundance of fish >20 years old associated with a virtually unexploited population has now declined, though strong cohorts are still recognisable at age 15+, and the incidence of above-average year classes has increased in the 1990s."
"Although bass stocks in Divisions IVb,c and VIIa,d,e,f,g,h, appear to be fished with an exploitation pattern that avoids growth over-fishing and at a fishing mortality level which is sustainable, given the uncertainties in the assessments and the possibility that an unfavourable change in environmental conditions may negatively influence recruitment, ICES considers that fishing mortality should not be allowed to increase."
So yup, I'd agree with you that bass are in no danger of becoming "threatened," however the fishery could be in a much condition and SHOULD be generating for all of us, the vast INSHORE MAJORITY, a far greater return on all fronts.
I'll leave it there for now, hopefully most of that makes some kind of sense, I'm happy to be taken to task on any of it, in the interests of constructive progress of course...
AJS
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Hello Andrew
Define off shore.
I mean, say to Cliff on the KT off shore is 7 miles out to the rough Towers, Off shore to me is 40 or 50 miles off to the deep water, to John on the Chieftain it's 100 miles off, how far offshore is offshore to Pickett & Pawson?
I still say a lot of bass, not all bass perhaps, spawn local to their summer grounds, it's nothing to do with global warming, they have always done so.
Wurzel,
understood - shall we make an arbitrary decision between ourselves and say beyond the 12 mile limit for the sake of this discussion? this measure often seems to suit CEFAS - of course we are talking principally about the English Channel/Western Approaches winter pair trawl fishery here - not some of the more "exotic" places further north where bass are being found more regularly these days
from mapping of egg abundance in sample trawls, I'd say a Channel bass's "offshore" is considerably further than 12 miles in reality, but there you go - if you have a look at CEFAS's historic research on the pair trawl fishery you'll see where the bulk of French/Scottish effort is put in
I too have seen what most would classify as "ripe and running" fish on the beaches/in "shallow" water here in Jan/Feb/Mar, but the reality is most folks have never seen what fully hydrated, bursting, bass ovaries actually look like and the fish on the beaches I mention are not in this state, but at the stage before - classified by P&P as "gravid" - it is very easy to confuse the two conditions, if follows therefore that a journey "offshore" (however defined) for a gravid fish turning rapidly into a spawner, could easily be just a day's swim (particularly with the Channel's macro-tidal regime) - I understand also that it may be the case that bass "batch spawn" i.e. a bit at a time over lunar/tidal cycles - this is very common behaviour in perciform fish - in theory then, fish may spawn some, return "inshore," recover and go thru the cycle again...
I don't doubt some bass spawn "local to their summer grounds" but could you define "local"? likewise please confirm what you mean by "a lot"...
to my mind the logic of an industrial scale pair trawl fishery for winter spawning aggregations of slow growing fish is akin to the logic of a farmer going out each spring and killing his prize bull & cattle bloodline - those fish would make a greater "value" (however defined
) in the hands of "inshore" fishermen, anglers & artisans...enough for now
AJS
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I have a problem with this close the bass spawning fishery, when and where do they spawn? I don't think the bass, in fact I am certain the bass in the SW approaches are not spawning aggregations, they are just over wintering,
FWIW
While there is of course the possibilty that things have changed/are changing due to climate change & other unidentified factors, I think you will find oocyte (egg) staging work done on pair trawlers working in the SW Approaches has conclusively proved that spawning takes place offshore (as well as in suitable localised coastal habitats I don't doubt).
Pickett & Pawson's Sea Bass Biology, Exploitation & Conservation states "In early February, bass begin to spawn offshore in the western English Channel and Celtic Sea. Temperature probably provides an important cue for the initiation and location of spawning, because bass eggs are rarely found where the water is colder than 8.5-9.0 degrees C. As with many other marine species, bass spawn in mid-water, and the eggs are widely distributed in the open ocean and may be found throughout the water column."
AJS
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This I know to be true. My late (French) father-in-law detested pair trawlers.
Hi folks,
FWIW
I agree, ending the senseless pillaging of spawning agregations should be our unified first goal, IMHO
context below from a couple of emails I received earlier this year - the French have been carcass tagging in a range of schemes for some time now
I understand despite the supermarket U-turn described below, opinion is firming up against the pair trawl fishery - who knows what will happen this winter
be well
AJS
From a survey of French bass prices:
Of a total of 52 price checks
The average price of line caught bass : 17,58 Euros/Kg (based on 12 price checks)
That of trawled bass: 11, 77 Euros/Kg (based on 34 price checks)
That of farmed bass: 10, 46 Euros / Kg (based on 6 checks)
From a sign at a fish counter:
"In collaboration with "The European Bass Group" The Saint Nazaire branch of Leclerc's has decided not to display bass for sale during the reproductive period, this step has been taken to conserve the resource. We will restart selling this product as soon as the spawning season ends. Thankyou for your understanding and support."
Rough Trans 22/02/06
La Turballe defends its bass fishery.
The St Nazaire branch of Leclerc’s is to restart selling bass. It gave way to fishermen’s arguments yesterday.
“Our intiative was not made to harm a profession. On the contrary, our position sought to find a just balance”. The Director of the St Nazaire’s branch of Leclerc’s had decided to stop selling bass during the reproductive period. (Saturday’s Ouest France). He was questioned by fishermen from La Turballe, on the Saturday morning.
“There is no reason for your initiative since Ifremer’s report on the bass resource of October 2003 shows that the bass stock is not overexploited” Dominique Lebrun, the Chairman of La Turballe’s Sea Fisheries Committee, confirmed , yesterday. Daniel Noblet the Director of the branch of Leclerc’s met the fishermen at La Turballe, Monday morning. He listened to their arguments “ After this meeting, I think I will restart selling wild bass very soon.” . He took action in order to protect the bass stock from fishing practices, even during the repoductive season . According to Ifremer, “ One should know that the closure of the fishery during the reproductive period, generally has a minimal impact on the renewal of the stock”. Fishermen are, in any event, limited to 5 tonnes of bass per week per boat."
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Hello Andrew,
I think they were the data storage tags, that is what they were using last week.
I think one of the problems is they are trying to make an exact science out of some thing that is constantly changing, just because they prove some bass done one thing one year does not mean all bass done the same the next.
Both camps are guilty of cherry picking the bits of information that suits their cause, it's called politics.
Hi Wurzel,
amen to that - I'd guess some of the results are potentially quite "explosive" - probably got a lot to do with s'ones publication list, C.V. and professional ambitions I'd imagine too - will never forget a senior French fisheries scientist with Brussels DG XIV saying at a conference some years back words to the effect of (I forgot them exactly) "Scientists love complexity, it helps them preserve their social status, politicians equally love the same complexity, it helps them avoid taking difficult decisions."
the great tragedy is of course that while fishers (in the broadest sense of the word) squabble ~ Rome burns
can't help but think a fragmented & divided fishing community is much easier to manage - divide & conquer "n" all that
what to do?
allbest
Andrew
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You always wheel out that out dated inaccurate evidence, we know different. Plus I got some information just last week, where CEFAS tagged 20 bass from the Channel Isles, three of them turned up off the Suffolk coast, one in the river at Southwould, they were saying how fantastic a result it was to get 3 returns from just 20 tags.
FWIW
I understood that perhaps two hundred bass were tagged on the BB? To my knowledge no other bass have been tagged in the CI for several years. 3 returns from 20 indicates some significant level of fishing mortality does is not? Perhaps we are taking about data storage archival tags here then? I've had conventionally tagged "Jersey" summer fish returned from the same reef on which they were released, just days later; a fish that travelled over 1200km in just under two months & another taken by a Scottish pair team operating S of the Eddystone Light. My point?
Until CEFAS put all the tagging data they have accumulated (with significant public assistance & goodwill) into the public arena, we are all forced to speculate about what might/might not be revealed by the results. Which is not helpful IMHO. Why would they be so quiet, one wonders?
"I read it in the Fishing News so it must be true" & "don't confuse me with facts I've made up my mind" are two of the better escape lines I've heard trotted out by opposers of an increased MLS, amongst other things.
"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative" Oscar Wilde
AJS
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Carol58,
amongst all the drama I've been really pleased to read your posts, particularly the sentiment expressed below...
Do you really think the scientists who collate the data are going to take seriously the opinions of people who simply go fishing and who cannot identify common seaweeds, common birds or the various foreshore tidal zones etc?I think not.
you are so right, we badly need to wise up & it's refreshing to hear a few voices here advocating exactly that
take it easy
Andrew
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Hi Grant,
Rock worm or Rockbait is what you would probably know as maddies, a small variety of ragworm similar in appearance to king rag but only growing to around six inches long. It lives in gravelly, rocky areas, hence the name. It is often found in the same areas as verm, but not so deep down. Not as good a bait as verm, but very good for many species nonetheless.
Alderney Bassman,
Great report mate!
Hi guys, for what it's worth...
your Bailiwick's "verm" is our "rockworm" and UK "maddies" would be equivalent to our "redcat" I believe, (but stand to be corrected) I've never heard anyone refer to "maddies" here...
just my couple of centimes
cheers
Andrew
Viva Riduna!!!
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There are two threads on the forum at the moment with a similar vein - this one and the Bag limits / licences thread.
Heated bedate and airing opposing views are what forums are all about and an exchange of views is undoubtledly healthy for the wider understanding of these highly personal views.
I am getting fed up though, with the constant snipping and flaming of these threads, with banal and petty comments, squarely aimed at individuals, which only serve to devalue the exchange of ideas and beliefs.
Comments like ''Lighten up'' and ''Get a life'' are the replies fired off, when well thought out and constructive posts are made, by the victims of the sniper in question.
What possible value do these comments bring to the thread?
The answer is none - so from now on I shan't be reading any of his posts - they are not worth my time.
Cheers
Steve Pitts
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds ~ Albert Einstein
Amen to that...
AJS
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Andrew - cheers for the Jersey info. Do you know if the Anna II and Theseus are going to sell their licenses then? Is Theseus going to fish Boue Blondel again this winter?
Hello Toerag,
now there's a good question
of course I can't speak for either TH or DN in any way whatsoever, but my gut reaction tells me that they are likely going to keep enjoying the best of both worlds...quite whether their revenue generating "crew" are appropriately trained and qualified to fish on a registered commercial fishing vessel is another question altogether
myself I have a humble JY number, with a strict policy on retain/release
what a mess we collectively find ourselves in
Andrew
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Afternoon,
been lurking for a while, enjoying reading fertile & instructive discussions like this one
this my first post (I think) on Anglers Net so please be gentle with me
Toerag wrote in his :
"Bear in mind that's what the Jersey authorities have done, they have forced the charterboats to be commecially licensed to get round the problem."
to coin a phrase I'm want to use elsewhere, "for what it's worth", adding a new twist to our interisland scenario:
Fresh news that I guess Toerag isn't aware of yet - as of a couple of weeks ago this is no longer the case ~ Jersey's Harbour and Fisheries Authorities sought further legal opinion and the situation has been corrected ~ to reflect the situation elsewhere ~ licenses are required by those who wish to trade in fish, but not by those who wish to sell the fishing experience.
So I guess a Jersey Charter vessel is now "free to fish the other Bailiwick's waters," as a pleasure boat would be?
Hope this of some interest...
Andrew
A.N. Other Jersey Charter Skipper (imminent)
PS Black bream abundance fluctuated dramatically on and off through the tail end of the 20th (and likely prior) Century ~ with records of both glut and absence (collapse?
), even since the 1960's... -
Afternoon,
been lurking for a while, enjoying reading fertile & instructive discussions like this one
this my first post (I think) on Anglers Net so please be gentle with me
Toerag wrote in his :
"Bear in mind that's what the Jersey authorities have done, they have forced the charterboats to be commecially licensed to get round the problem."
to coin a phrase I'm want to use elsewhere, "for what it's worth", adding a new twist to our interisland scenario:
Fresh news that I guess Toerag isn't aware of yet - as of a couple of weeks ago this is no longer the case ~ Jersey's Harbour and Fisheries Authorities sought further legal opinion and the situation has been corrected ~ to reflect the situation elsewhere ~ licenses are required by those who wish to trade in fish, but not by those who wish to sell the fishing experience.
So I guess a Jersey Charter vessel is now "free to fish the other Bailiwick's waters," as a pleasure boat would be?
Hope this of some interest...
Andrew
A.N. Other Jersey Charter Skipper (imminent)
PS Black bream abundance fluctuated dramatically on and off through the tail end of the 20th (and likely prior) Century ~ with records of both glut and absence (collapse?
), even since the 1960's...
no more red diesel
in Conservation & Politics
Posted
http://www.fishupdate.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/6062
Boatowners hit by end of exemption
Published: 07 December, 2006
PRIVATE boat owners will lose the right to use red diesel from January 1, it emerged today.
Financial Secretary John Healey told the House of Commons in a heated
exchange with Northern Isles MP Alistair Carmichael that the European Commission had rejected an UK application that would have seen pleasure boat owners able to continue to purchase cheaper red diesel.
Mr Carmichael had been on the forefront of a campaign for many years to try to ensure that private boat owners would continue to benefit from cheaper diesel.The news was condemned by boat users in the Northern Isles where owning a boat is part of the lifestyle of many.
The chairman of the Shetland Marinas, Piers and Boating Clubs Association (SMPBCA), Bobby Hunter said the change meant yet another tax on people living in rural Britain.
"In a community where boats are an integral part of society.It is yet
another tax being put on us from a government that really doesn't think too much about rural and remote communities" he said.
Earlier today, Mr Carmichael had attacked Mr Healey suggesting that the fight for keeping red diesel might not have been lost had the secretary more "backbone."
Up until now, the UK has been able to supply red diesel to private boat owners under a derogation from EU rules. This derogation has now not been extended.
Mr Carmichael told the Government's Financial Secretary: "Can I say to him, I have pursued him on this point for a number of years now? This is something which could have been dealt with much more quickly and much sooner had he had the backbone to do it."
Mr Healey told the Commons that he was well aware that the derogation permitting the use of red diesel in Britain is highly valued by private boat owners and users.
He added: "We put the strongest possible case to the Commission. We
prepared that case in close cooperation and with contributions from many of the organisations affected. We could have done little more to press the case.
"I spoke personally with the Commissioner and have written personally to the Commission on this issue. There is no further stage in this process now."
Mr Carmichael commented: "I first raised this issue with Treasury
Ministers in 2004. Now, with less than a month to go before the derogation expires, we are told that private boats will not be able to use red diesel.
"Private boat users have been the victim of New Labour prejudices.They clearly thought that they were dealing with a few rich people on their gin palaces. The opposite is true. This change will serve to exclude many people on low incomes from enjoying boat use."
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