Sutton Warrior
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Posts posted by Sutton Warrior
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Cliff (SW) I know you use Elements 7 (me to). What method do you use when cropping?
I click on a thumbnail to open up the photo, then click image, then click crop. You then are able to drag the crop borders any way you want then when happy click the tick. This then gives you the photo at full size, if you are not happy with it click edit and then click undo crop. Of course you can carry out this procedure as often as you like until you are happy with the crop and the noise.
I guess you know all this but as I had time to spare I thought I would do it anyway.
Pretty well DelJ, although I use the crop tool, and drag the box to the approximate size, then move the sides independently and move the box around in its entirety by click, hold and drag the crossed circle in the centre. The rest is as you describe.
A point I had not appreciated until the past couple of weeks, I do any sharpening after size reduction to 800ppi, view actual pixels, I also have taken to using the 'sharpen facility' rather than 'unsharp'. Gives me a much better job and appreciation of the final picture to view. Personal preference maybe?
SW
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Ah! It all becomes clear now
Film = grain, digital = noise? One and the same thing, but in different formats? I must say that I can't see it in your photo's, but I'm only using a bog standard screen.
I'm assuming that instead of cropping a larger picture, I'll get better results by trying to get closer to the subject. Would that be right?
Janet
Spot on Janet as I see it, thats the advise and the action one tries to work on, but not always possible. As low an ISO as practical, and as close as possible.
SW
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Now I'm going to sound really dim here, but what exactly is "noise" in relation to photography?
By the way Mick, it wasn't me who cropped the photo - it was SW who did it at my suggestion and the more I look at it, the more I like it!
I don't have that photographers "eye" yet - I'm one of those intensely annoying people who knows what she likes, but can't quite figure out why. I'm hoping that will come with time!
Janet
My simplistic understanding Janet, digital noise is the equivalent of film grain, created by fast films. Seen commonly at hi ISO (400 and up wards on some cameras) settings on digital cameras, as you zoom in, and by copping and blowing up the crop, even well controlled grain is bound to be come visible as any picture or part of said picture is blown up.
At a personal level, I dont worry about it, it does not seem to show badly on my screen. I have no idea what type of screen Mick uses, but one suspects the 25" megabucks pro screens show it. Drag and drop the daisy pic., from here into a windows file, then zoom in, you will see all sorts of nastiness, I've just checked the 300dpi original, that started life at 200 ISO, as do a lot of my pictures, allows for a lot of light changes.
Printing out, may throw up some issues on heavily cropped and then blown up pictures. However, what is on this thread is purely for the pleasure, inspiration and fuel for discussion of those viewing.
Perhaps some one might like to explain in more correct terms, 'picture grain' . . . ?
SW
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I personally find it very hard to visualise what a cropped image will look like until I do it and see it 'in the flesh'. I'm sure it comes with practice but I think the grass spikes example illustrates just how much different a bit (lot) of cropping can alter the final picture. All I need to do is find some more time to look through the hundreds (thousands ?) of pictures I now have on my pc and have a play with some of them.
Rob.
Roy, I have trouble visualising crops as well, so, when I am viewing pictures for the fist time via windows in the sessions folder, click on the thumb nail, fills the screen, roll the mouse wheel and you can zoom in on the picture. Move it around with the side and bottom bars. Its not as good as the crop/zoom in PhotoShop, but gives me my first incling of, can I save a snapshot, or lightly crop to produce better framing! I keep a pad beside me and make quick notes of frame number and a point to zoom onto in PhotoShop.
SW
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I think I do prefer the very tight crop that Janet did but it wouldnt really be used like that due to the high noise level it shows. Maybe some noisewhere photo shopping could do something with it but yea, a very tight crop really shows the imperfections in any shot.
Mick.
Tight heavy cropping does create problems, but can be an inspiration on how to take a similar shot next time? The pictures created by this heavy cropping by me are generally for my own use and pleasure. I find the 800ppi size does not show noise to much on my screen? In fact, I can accept a certain amount of noise as pare for the course, in the same way as 'grain on film', or 'frying eggs' back ground noise on a well produced vinyl record, anyone remember them . . . 12" diameter flat, black discs with a quarter inch hole in the middle . . .
The debate will be a long time dying, as will the advantages/disadvantage of film v digital.In the mean time enjoy the fun,
SW
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Now I much prefer that...to me it's still a lonely daisey.
Told you I was drastic - I'd have taken some off the top too, at least down to the top of the blurred flower in the top right hand corner...
However, now I look back at your original edit, I'm a bit undecided....
Isn't it funny how different people percieve things? Either way, it's a lovely shot!
Janet
Its another one of those 'shoot from the hip' shots. On my way out one evening to walk the dog down the marina, rounded a bend in the lane and this drift of stark bright yellow, green and white hit me in the evening light. Got in among them 'down and dirty'. This was the shot I found on the computer, zoom in, zip around, in a bit more, out a tad, there it was, the original is uninteresting to say the least.
SW
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Not that I know much about it, but the new versions of Grass Spikes and Daisy are more to my taste. The half flower at the bottom right of the screen was a bit jarring in the original. All or nothing for me! Perhaps a crop of just the daisy and some subtle background might look good? I must admit I probably tend to crop too drastically!
Wish there was a way of viewing them side by side, rather than having to scroll down? By the time I've looked at one and scrolled down to the next, I find it hard to see where the changes were made, particularly in the first one. I'm struggling to see any difference in Boats on moorings? May be too subtle for my monitor!
Janet
Janet, you dont have to know much . . . only what tickles your fancy.
I have tied your sugestion on two seperate full size 300ppi . . . for me the impact of the lonly daisey is lost.
However, here you go, thats what this thread is all about, is this what you were thinking of?
Janets 'Daisey', its hard to keep to the rule of 3rds at this amount of crop . . .
SW
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You really are getting pretty good at this lark you know Cliff.
I'm hoping someone is going to come in and tell me what I'm doing wrong . . . This is all very much learn as you go! Good fun though ah 'DelJ'
SW
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Dug back to July 2008 found this one:
1 A particular favourite of mine, 'Daisey' this is a new crop and re adjust the colour.
1a The original 800pix Daisey.
SW
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Had all day mulling over, the Sunrise file I recently found as mentioned in my previous post.
Then I thought a lot of water has gone under my personal bride since December . . . and even more water over the years I have been a member of AN, first the Sea Angling site and then the extra interest with AN Photography. A lot has been learned, what to do . . . and what not to do
I'm not a one to go mad on twiddling around with pictures, however I do like my cropping. Many a time I've found a picture within a 'snap-shot' by zooming in moving the box around, bingo!Would it work on the Sunrise shots? and what could I find on some old pictures I've not seriously looked at for a long time?
So for starters, here are a few, from the 'Sunrise Folder', for your delectation and delight??
then again, you may have other views, please feel free 
1 'Boats on moorings'. A new tweaked colour version of an original, the crop is very similar.
1a The original of 'Boats on moorings' posted in 2008
2 'Grass Spikes'. A totally new colour and crop of the original.
2a The original of 'Grass Spikes' posted 2008.
3 'Morning Frost', completely new, heavily cropped from an uninteresting snap.
4 'Fore Shore', another new picture from the Sunrise file, ordinary as it was, cropped and a tweak to the colour curves.
Pictures of interest, to me, for the reasons stated above. A new fresh look gained from experience? or am I just 'fiddling'.
If the reaction is good, ie., enjoyed, and/or constructive criticism results, perhaps I will dig further into some of my older files?
May I also suggest you post some old re vamps for others to enjoy and/or learn from . . .
SW
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Yes, they certainly are good. Very good in fact. I love the colours but the quality of the pics looks great too. Something to be proud of there SW.
Mick.
Thanks Mick, I happened to be in the right place, at the right time on 'the right day', all day.
I am also please with them because the ISO was jacked up to 1600!!! and D80's are not at their best with such high numbers, so they say. The noise is there but it seems to work with the pictures, no intruding?SW
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Its a tough life being a dog in a good home . . .
Oliver, asleep
Get that camera out of my face, I want to sleep . . . please
SW
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Jeez! I wish I could take photographs like that!
Janet
Janet, it was one of those sessions, it did not matter where you pointed the camera there was a shot
Early morning, frost on the ground, I slipped down slopes, preferring to nearly break my neck rather than the camera, the sun was up and gone in 30 minutes, I took a total of about 40 pictures I think? I pass this location every time I go to the boat, it often presents opportunities, but this day was spectacular. . . seem to remember we had some good cod as well . . . then to come home and have another session in the sunset, pictures 1 and 4 are from the sunset session. SW
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Not new to me Cliff but they loose nothing in a second viewing, FWIW I think the crops work well.
Were they all taken with the D80 by any chance?
Yes mate, D80, Nikon 18-200VR.
SW
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Looking through the external computer files last night, and came across a folder I did not recognise, 'Sunrise', open it . . . a eureka moment
In December I took a sequence of Sunrise/Sunset pictures on the same day, with a cod fishing trip punctuating the time in between. I posted some on here and one 'Bird Roost' won that months competition. The pictures also marked a point in time, a personal milestone, get away from 'snapshots' and do some serious photography.Which I have pursued, how successfully??? however, shortly after, I changed my Computer, saving all my old file to an external hard drive, view to reinstate when the new computer was up and running. Everything went fine, but where had my Sunrise pictures gone??
Ever since, I have looked, with no luck?Until last night, the whole file, all the original from the session, lurking inside another file, miss-filed . . . you cant get the staff these days . . .
So here they are again, to celibrate the discovery of my lost pictures, and that personal milestone. Some you have seen, but not all. I have re cropped then all from the originals, and tweaked the colour curve a a tad, not the competition now so I can do that!
1 Competition winner 'Bird Roost', re croped.
2 'Old scrubbing posts'.
3 'Spectacular colour' very little colour adjustment!
4 'Shotley Promenade' at sunset
5 'Felistowe Docks'
6 'Little Gem' ready for the cod fishing trip
I am so pleased to have found my lost originals, seen them before, I hope you enjoy the new crop, if new to you please enjoy . . .
SW -
How about a bit of stream lining on the heading, giving it own space and actually calling it what is on the top of the competition page when you get there:
"AN Photographic Competition" and ad the date 'for April 09'
At the moment its 'Photo of the month', any one new or just browsing would have no idea? I'm thinking that selling the fact that there is a competition on the go, month by month, might just help to inspire some one, it seems even 'old hands have had trouble finding it recently'?
Its so frustrating going into a shop, cant find what you are looking for, because its poorly displayed, you come out frustrated and disgruntled, go to the shop down the road, where its there 'in your face'. Sale lost to the first shop. 
SW
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Cheers Steve! I'll have a go and see what it's like...I'm all for free products!
However, I think I may be hooked on Elements now....
Still, I have a month to decide before the trial period is up!
Thanks everyone for your help. It's very much appreciated.
Janet
Dont forget Janet, Adobies price and the same thing, but not in a box via Amazon, should considerable saving?
SW
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OOooooh! I've heard of him...isn't he a contempory of Ansel Adams?
Seriously, although I don't think Elements is easy, it certainly isn't difficult. Thanks to the advice I was given, I've been able to adjust light levels, sharpen, crop and all the basics that are needed. I've managed to rescue a few rather dull and drab shots and turn them into something that I'm actually quite happy with now. What I really do like is that it shows all your changes instantly, whereas some of the freebies are rather slow.
I only got myself confused when I went exploring beyond the basics ... I've had some seriously amazing results, just messing around and experimenting. I think the only limit would be my imagination! It does beg the question though - how much of the really great photography we see is down to skill and the photographer's eye, and just how much is down to programs like Photoshop?
Still, does it really matter? A good image is a good image, regardless of what it took to get it.
Suffice to say, although I know it's going to be a steep learning curve, I like it so far and will be paying for the full version at the end of the trial period.
Janet
Small bite sizes Janet . . . Don't choke on it!!!
As for some of the top pictures?? you are probably right, in my humble opinion, its 'computer artistry' using 'parts of photographs' as raw materials? I had someone say to me a little while ago; " any idiot can prodce a picture out of a computer, it takes photographic skill, and an eye to do it in the field with a camera" . . . A good photographers eye using basic skills will be my pleasure, one day . . . ?
Thats not to say the computer artist is inferior, far from it . . . but it is different, is it photography . . . ???
SW
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OK guys! Now you're having a laugh....
I've just wasted a whole morning playing around with it. What an absolute waste of time! That was time when I could have been doing the washing, ironing, vacuuming or all those other delightful little tasks that seem to expand in proportion to the time allotted to do them.
Instead I've been sitting here like a kiddie in a sweet shop, wondering which item to try next!
Many thanks Medwaygreen and SW for your guidance. At least this morning I had a starting point to work from, and the results are pretty good. I'm slowly workiing my way through the menus and finding out what things are for, and also I've found some good on-line tutorials, so that's tonight's homework taken care of!
It certainly isn't as easy to use as some of the freebie editing programs, but it seems a lot more versatile. I think (once I get the hang of it!) that I'm going to love it.
Janet
Stick with it Janet, it has some much to offer compared with the freebies. You wont do it in a day gal!!! this is not 'Bert Weedon's' Play in a Day, you know. . .
Manufactures, please take note, Janet needs a middle of the road, hold the hand program, that sits between simple course control freebies and the 'entry level quality of Elements' . . . !
That also does the washing, ironing and vacuming, while she sits at the computer . . .
. . . There used to be one called 'Photo Delux', an Adobe product, 'held the hand', offered 'how to' suggestions, took a long time to complete a task but it worked. Then they replaced it with Elements, down hill since then. However its Elements or nothing that I know of, anyone?????
SW
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Yup! Downloaded perfectly....just don't understand it!
It's nowhere near as simple and intuitive as Picasa and the program that came with the camera, but I can see it has some great capabilities. The question is, do I?
I've managed to do a bit of basic sharpening and cropping, as well as altering the colour cast etc, and I'm very pleased with the results so far - much better than the free programs I've got - much more controllable - just very confusing!
I've spent most of the evening messing around with it, and I'm sure it's a program I can learn to love! I've been onto the library website and found that they have a couple of "How to" type books on Elements in stock at my local library, so I'm going to go and pick them up in the morning.
I think it's safe to say that no housework will get done this weekend....
Janet
Medwaygreens advise is good Janet, overall, probably all you need to understand. Personally I find the 'White balance' a bit of a red herring with JPG files, (you are using JPG) I believe? it is more relevant to RAW files
. . . you dont want to know!Levels is, the power tool you need . . . to find:-
. . . top tool bar, mouse over 'Enhance', pop up menu, mouse over 'Adjust Lighting' . . . there it is! Shadow, Brightness and Levels. Click on 'Levels', there is an 'about' button, top right. Remember I said, I 'move/slide' and 'click on' . . . and see what happens . . . you are into the wold of "what does this do" . . .
Then there is Sharpen and Unsharp Mask. 'Unsharp' is a sharpening tool . . . !!!
despite its title, Sharpen is as it says, bothe usefull, but for now simple 'sharpen' will do. The rest you have sussed.These are the very, very basics, from here its, have fun . . . always work on a copy for now, normaly you cant mess it up, but just ocasionaly, it can cick back.
Elements is not as simple as the freebies, its suprising how intuitive it gets as you begin to understand the headings and titles, 'knowing how much' when you are in a work space, thats the tricky bit that comes with practise . . . one day I will get there . . .
SW
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Well, if you two like it then I'm going to try it! Off to register and download it now.
By the way, I think my camera is full. I've bought some new film today, but where do I put it?
Cheers guys!
Janet
Janet, 'cling film' dont help, wrap it as many times as you like, its not going to work . . .
You down loaded that program yet??? . . .
SW
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help
in Photography
Yep, its there, 'What a view' . . . ?
This link will take you to the thumbnails, click on the pic to view, shift left or right to view the next pic by using the arrows in the top right corner of the picture you are viewing, back to thumbnails by clicking on the little square on the left hand side on the viewing pic.
http://www.photocumbria.com/gall/thumbnail...at=0&page=1
SW
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These are my Wife's Birthday flowers.
I hope you like them.
Superb medwaygreen, the whit is so white, sharp and with detail.
SW
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Hi Janet,
It will expire no con on the adobe site, at the end of the trail they may ask if you wish to purchase that's all.
I use Elements 4 and I like it.
I will confirm, I used Elements 4, for a long time and got on very well with it. E'v.5 crashed my computer!!! missed out v6, and now use v7, the change was driven by my wish to try faffing around with RAW . . . for me, RAW has proved a wast of 'time', I'm happy as I am/was
So, Elements v.4 was a nice simple program, 'to me', did all I want, E'v.7, thats been OK, took a bit of getting my head around. Not that its complicated, but being used to v4, the changes were sometimes a little hard to find and suss out. Like some one clearing my shed and putting every thing in the wrong cupboards, same items but . . . 
Elements v.7 is close enough to CS4, as far as I can see, for the amateur. I see no point in the expense of over £500!!!! rather put the cash towards a new lens. Elements v.7 is on offer at Amazon for £50, and v4 is £40. When I bought v.7 autumn last year, it was 'thirty squid'!!! thats inflation for you?
SW
IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE....?
in Photography
Posted
I agree, grate picture, putt's me in mind of the stuffed finches my auntie used to have in here living room, wow that though has bought back memories . . . . . . very happy memories, my Auntie Alice and Uncle Cyrl . . . Sadly, long departed . . .
Janet, you had some luck with the local 'Lions'? . . . . . . . . . . Dandy-lions
. . . well, I thought it was funny?
SW