trent.barbeler

Dear Mike, I have read your original post only as yet. Please allow me to use it in my answer. Mikes quote; "Democratic institutions are great in concept, but look at what happens to most democracies in history. They crumble and fall by the wayside to be replaced by more aggressive societies led by “dictators” or small effective groups of leaders. From which, in time, spring new democracies which in turn crumble and fall by the wayside." Answer; Interesting comment Mike. Just how far are you going back in history? The Americans have retained their democracy since their beginning. So have we the British. The Swedes, the French, the Dutch and many many more. Of course, I accept that within the confines of history in terms of its years, democracy is pretty much a modern thing. But within its modern parameters, democracy has lasted very well. Your quote; "It is the pattern of human societal development and angling organisations reflect that fact". Answer, My local club, the GAA has been formed for well over a hundred years. Exactly the same as thousands of old and established fishing clubs all around the country. Each and every one have been successfully ran and managed for the continuence and benefit of generations of its members on total democracy. And thats a fact Mike. Your Quote; "Democracy is a great idea, in concept – but the reality is that the most successful human societies are not fully democratic. Democracy leads, inevitably, to rule by the masses and leadership by the lowest common denominator. Do we really want angling led by “Sun readers”?" Answer, America. Land of the free. Home of the brave. Totally democratic nation which lives and breaths on its constitution. Most powerful and successful nation on Earth. Your quote; "The same situation occurs in companies. They are mostly built up by one individual, who has a vision and a drive to succeed. They grow. They go public and the shareholders start to control the business. The bean counters take over the board and the drive in the business is lost and the business succumbs. I do not want that happening in angling." Answer. Mike, the world of PLC companies is the realm of money. Real money. And seeing as there is no real money in angling, and that PLC trading has nothing to do with angling, why the comparison? Your quote, "Personally I don’t mind how our leaders come to the fore, as long as they are effective and generally represent the views of anglers. I am a member of BS and the PAC as well as ACA, all of which are non-democratic according to the definition applied by most posters here, but all are hugely effective organisations. The SAA and RSSG are both semi-democratic in constitution and we have yet to prove to anglers how effective they may be, although NGOs and other bodies already have a healthy respect for their effectiveness in campaigning and leading angling". Answer, What are you referring to when you state that the "SAA and RSSG are both semi-democratic in constitution"? A strange statement to make when the RSSG constitution does not get ratified until our final formation meeting next weekend. And when it does, ours will be totally democratic. Indeed, the RSSG officers are electable EVERY YEAR. You dont care how leaders come to the fore? I would think very carefully about that statement Mike. Because it is so thin in content as to be an unbelievable thing for an educated man to say. Your quote; The NFA, which is democratic, is not so effective, and I do not think Ken Ball and others involved in NFA would disagree with me on that. The votes of members control their actions and most members will always vote for the status quo, or their own self-interest, so the organisation finds it difficult, if not impossible, to move with the times and address those challenges which occur. Answer, I would imagine Mike, that if you took the podium at NFA conference and repeated that before 2000 NFA members, there would be quite a few in the audience that might just disagree with that. Most of the NFA activists that I know, are quite proud of their democratic proceedure, Your quote; "The challenge we all face as anglers is to develop institutions which can and do reflect the needs and aspirations of our members but which remain free enough to move quickly when situations change. I do not have the answer but I hope that we can find it somewhere. Until then I keep trying to do a little bit for angling, as do Steve Pope and many of the other posters on these boards." Answer, Every single democratically elected fishing club committee have, within their constitutions and rules, clauses that give their committee the remit to make decisions on their behalf within their yearly AGM's. This is COMMON practice. The same clubs also have the facility to hold EGM's to decide, or vote, on urgent issues within the club apart from their yearly AGM's. Does not the SAA have this facility to hold EGM's? They are in place for IMPORTANT decisions to be made when the whole membership can take part if they so choose to. This, is called democracy. As for being a "doer" for angling Mike? No one could ever doubt your credentials in the doing department. Shame there is not more like yourself. Your quote; With this posting we can explore the concept of democracy and the philosophy which lies at its root. I hope that no one will take the opportunity to take pot shots at those organisations they find themselves at variance with but will take the opportunity to debate openly how we can move the democratic principle forward within angling yet maintain the drive of individuals, which in the past has been so important to angling. Mike Heylin Answer, My priciples and opinions regarding open democracy are well known Mike. I like democracy and will defend its continuence to the hilt. Because without it, dictatorships rule. And I will NOT join any angling organisation that is not democratically run. What was it that Joseph Stallin once said? Ah yes. "Dictators corrupt. And total dictatorships corrupt, absolutely". Regards, Lee. [ 17 April 2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: trent.barbeler ]

Dear Mike, I have read your original post only as yet. Please allow me to use it in my answer. Mikes quote; "Democratic institutions are great in concept, but look at what happens to most democracies in history. They crumble and fall by the wayside to be replaced by more aggressive societies led by “dictators” or small effective groups of leaders. From which, in time, spring new democracies which in turn crumble and fall by the wayside." Answer; Interesting comment Mike. Just how far are you going back in history? The Americans have retained their democracy since their beginning. So have we the British. The Swedes, the French, the Dutch and many many more. Of course, I accept that within the confines of history in terms of its years, democracy is pretty much a modern thing. But within its modern parameters, democracy has lasted very well. Your quote; "It is the pattern of human societal development and angling organisations reflect that fact". Answer, My local club, the GAA has been formed for well over a hundred years. Exactly the same as thousands of old and established fishing clubs all around the country. Each and every one have been successfully ran and managed for the continuence and benefit of generations of its members on total democracy. And thats a fact Mike. Your Quote; "Democracy is a great idea, in concept – but the reality is that the most successful human societies are not fully democratic. Democracy leads, inevitably, to rule by the masses and leadership by the lowest common denominator. Do we really want angling led by “Sun readers”?" Answer, America. Land of the free. Home of the brave. Totally democratic nation which lives and breaths on its constitution. Most powerful and successful nation on Earth. Your quote; "The same situation occurs in companies. They are mostly built up by one individual, who has a vision and a drive to succeed. They grow. They go public and the shareholders start to control the business. The bean counters take over the board and the drive in the business is lost and the business succumbs. I do not want that happening in angling." Answer. Mike, the world of PLC companies is the realm of money. Real money. And seeing as there is no real money in angling, and that PLC trading has nothing to do with angling, why the comparison? Your quote, "Personally I don’t mind how our leaders come to the fore, as long as they are effective and generally represent the views of anglers. I am a member of BS and the PAC as well as ACA, all of which are non-democratic according to the definition applied by most posters here, but all are hugely effective organisations. The SAA and RSSG are both semi-democratic in constitution and we have yet to prove to anglers how effective they may be, although NGOs and other bodies already have a healthy respect for their effectiveness in campaigning and leading angling". Answer, What are you referring to when you state that the "SAA and RSSG are both semi-democratic in constitution"? A strange statement to make when the RSSG constitution does not get ratified until our final formation meeting next weekend. And when it does, ours will be totally democratic. Indeed, the RSSG officers are electable EVERY YEAR. You dont care how leaders come to the fore? I would think very carefully about that statement Mike. Because it is so thin in content as to be an unbelievable thing for an educated man to say. Your quote; The NFA, which is democratic, is not so effective, and I do not think Ken Ball and others involved in NFA would disagree with me on that. The votes of members control their actions and most members will always vote for the status quo, or their own self-interest, so the organisation finds it difficult, if not impossible, to move with the times and address those challenges which occur. Answer, I would imagine Mike, that if you took the podium at NFA conference and repeated that before 2000 NFA members, there would be quite a few in the audience that might just disagree with that. Most of the NFA activists that I know, are quite proud of their democratic proceedure, Your quote; "The challenge we all face as anglers is to develop institutions which can and do reflect the needs and aspirations of our members but which remain free enough to move quickly when situations change. I do not have the answer but I hope that we can find it somewhere. Until then I keep trying to do a little bit for angling, as do Steve Pope and many of the other posters on these boards." Answer, Every single democratically elected fishing club committee have, within their constitutions and rules, clauses that give their committee the remit to make decisions on their behalf within their yearly AGM's. This is COMMON practice. The same clubs also have the facility to hold EGM's to decide, or vote, on urgent issues within the club apart from their yearly AGM's. Does not the SAA have this facility to hold EGM's? They are in place for IMPORTANT decisions to be made when the whole membership can take part if they so choose to. This, is called democracy. As for being a "doer" for angling Mike? No one could ever doubt your credentials in the doing department. Shame there is not more like yourself. Your quote; With this posting we can explore the concept of democracy and the philosophy which lies at its root. I hope that no one will take the opportunity to take pot shots at those organisations they find themselves at variance with but will take the opportunity to debate openly how we can move the democratic principle forward within angling yet maintain the drive of individuals, which in the past has been so important to angling. Mike Heylin Answer, My priciples and opinions regarding open democracy are well known Mike. I like democracy and will defend its continuence to the hilt. Because without it, dictatorships rule. And I will NOT join any angling organisation that is not democratically run. What was it that Joseph Stallin once said? Ah yes. "Dictators corrupt. And total dictatorships corrupt, absolutely". Regards, Lee. [ 17 April 2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: trent.barbeler ]

Dear All, Peter Waller, like myself and others on this thread, have been critical of the SAA and NAA regarding the MOU. Along the way, many topics have been raised and argued over on all sides. Long may this continue because apart from anything else, everyone inside and outside of attending angling meetings gets to know what opinions are in such a way, that otherwise might not get aired. Open season? Perhaps. Freedom of speech? Certainly. And a dose of the truthful feelings from some, can sometimes bear fruit for all concerned. Peter says lets agree to disagree. Isn't this how all good arguments should end? But from that, should come a willingness to work together for the common good in such a way, that is perhaps within a better formed relationship than was the case before. There is always an answer, if we talk long enough and look far enough. It is only by building bridges, we get to cross more rivers. It is only by grasping hands, we get to climb the mountain. And if that last sentance doesn't get three quid off you Birdy, then you are as tight as Phil Hackett is. Oops. DUCK! More ice cream from the cheap seats. Regards, Lee.

Dear All, Peter Waller, like myself and others on this thread, have been critical of the SAA and NAA regarding the MOU. Along the way, many topics have been raised and argued over on all sides. Long may this continue because apart from anything else, everyone inside and outside of attending angling meetings gets to know what opinions are in such a way, that otherwise might not get aired. Open season? Perhaps. Freedom of speech? Certainly. And a dose of the truthful feelings from some, can sometimes bear fruit for all concerned. Peter says lets agree to disagree. Isn't this how all good arguments should end? But from that, should come a willingness to work together for the common good in such a way, that is perhaps within a better formed relationship than was the case before. There is always an answer, if we talk long enough and look far enough. It is only by building bridges, we get to cross more rivers. It is only by grasping hands, we get to climb the mountain. And if that last sentance doesn't get three quid off you Birdy, then you are as tight as Phil Hackett is. Oops. DUCK! More ice cream from the cheap seats. Regards, Lee.

Dear All, It is always very interesting to note how threads twist and turn away from their original content. I must say, I am guilty as anyone for partaking in this practice. Someone comes in and says something or gives an opinion, and its open season for all. Dont get me wrong, I quite like it that way because such topics being raised perhaps outside of the original subject contributes for the threads rich tapestry of opinions being raised. Brian raised something about the RSSG which I feel, to be fair, I should answer. Brain said, quite rightly by the way, that certain feelings were "running high" pre the formation of the RSSG at its first formation meeting in Essex on the 19th of January this year. But at that meeting, it was made perfectly plain by all those in attendance, that the RSSG would NOT get involved in any "witch hunts" and furthermore, was NOT opposed to syndicate type fisheries. I can assure everyone, the decision taken regarding syndicates was not due to anyone at the meeting wanting to see their "backs covered". Infact, it was myself that raised the subject of syndicates at the meeting giving my opinion that we should not be opposed to this type of fishery. And I have never been a member of a syndicate on rivers nor had the majority of those in attendance at the meeting to my knowledge. I can assure everyone, if that were not the case, I would come straight out and tell the truth. The past, is in the past for all to either hang onto, or let go. I am looking towards the future and the on-going future for river angling. Fortunately for the RSSG and river angling, those that came to the first formation meeting, and the second one coming up shortly, look towards the future as well. Regards, Lee.

Dear All, It is always very interesting to note how threads twist and turn away from their original content. I must say, I am guilty as anyone for partaking in this practice. Someone comes in and says something or gives an opinion, and its open season for all. Dont get me wrong, I quite like it that way because such topics being raised perhaps outside of the original subject contributes for the threads rich tapestry of opinions being raised. Brian raised something about the RSSG which I feel, to be fair, I should answer. Brain said, quite rightly by the way, that certain feelings were "running high" pre the formation of the RSSG at its first formation meeting in Essex on the 19th of January this year. But at that meeting, it was made perfectly plain by all those in attendance, that the RSSG would NOT get involved in any "witch hunts" and furthermore, was NOT opposed to syndicate type fisheries. I can assure everyone, the decision taken regarding syndicates was not due to anyone at the meeting wanting to see their "backs covered". Infact, it was myself that raised the subject of syndicates at the meeting giving my opinion that we should not be opposed to this type of fishery. And I have never been a member of a syndicate on rivers nor had the majority of those in attendance at the meeting to my knowledge. I can assure everyone, if that were not the case, I would come straight out and tell the truth. The past, is in the past for all to either hang onto, or let go. I am looking towards the future and the on-going future for river angling. Fortunately for the RSSG and river angling, those that came to the first formation meeting, and the second one coming up shortly, look towards the future as well. Regards, Lee.

Dear Dorsal Fin, Something you might like to know; I have met Steve Pope twice. Both times at SACG meetings. The first time we met, I spoke to Steve for about three minutes. The second time for about one minute. Hardly a basis for our being "matey" or a sound relationship that might get me a key to the vatican washroom. Steve does talk to me occasionally on the telephone. But I am merely just one of so many that infact, probably make up for Telecoms quarterly profits. Steve Pope does talk to SAA guys like Mike Heylin and others. Infact outside of official SAA and BS affairs, the relationship is quite friendly. There is going to be NO competition between the RSSG and the SAA or anyone else as far as river issues are concerned. Rivers are far to important to us for that to ever happen. Regards, Lee.

Dear Dorsal Fin, Something you might like to know; I have met Steve Pope twice. Both times at SACG meetings. The first time we met, I spoke to Steve for about three minutes. The second time for about one minute. Hardly a basis for our being "matey" or a sound relationship that might get me a key to the vatican washroom. Steve does talk to me occasionally on the telephone. But I am merely just one of so many that infact, probably make up for Telecoms quarterly profits. Steve Pope does talk to SAA guys like Mike Heylin and others. Infact outside of official SAA and BS affairs, the relationship is quite friendly. There is going to be NO competition between the RSSG and the SAA or anyone else as far as river issues are concerned. Rivers are far to important to us for that to ever happen. Regards, Lee.

Dear Nick, You can join the RSSG on-line on this site and all the relevant information is on this site also. We already have numbers, if needed, to help out the GAA as I have been contacted my more local RSSG members already. I have spoken to the GAA chairman today and a RSSG letter is on its way to Simon tonight. Leon, Spot on post. You highlight perfectly not only the need to protect and preserve our river systems, but the creatures that live in our oceans as well. The GAA case is a very sad one, news of the week if you like. But there are many, to many similar stories unfolding every week, every month in every year. Be they on rivers or out in our sea's. Fortunately, there are guys like yourself Leon out there who are way out in front, fighting the fight right on the front lines. Regards, Lee.

Dear Nick, You can join the RSSG on-line on this site and all the relevant information is on this site also. We already have numbers, if needed, to help out the GAA as I have been contacted my more local RSSG members already. I have spoken to the GAA chairman today and a RSSG letter is on its way to Simon tonight. Leon, Spot on post. You highlight perfectly not only the need to protect and preserve our river systems, but the creatures that live in our oceans as well. The GAA case is a very sad one, news of the week if you like. But there are many, to many similar stories unfolding every week, every month in every year. Be they on rivers or out in our sea's. Fortunately, there are guys like yourself Leon out there who are way out in front, fighting the fight right on the front lines. Regards, Lee.

Hi Cranfield, Its already been booked. At the International Hotel as it happens and guess what? Your yawning man will be there to. Regards, Lee.

Hi Cranfield, Its already been booked. At the International Hotel as it happens and guess what? Your yawning man will be there to. Regards, Lee.

Dear Leon, And by the way, whilst we are talking about Steve Pope, well, I am, what about the guy? He comes on here, posts a thread and pooff! Gone in a cloud of smoke like the magician on stage leaving us all as assistants in sparkly dresses wondering where the hell he's gone. Alan Pearce is moaning because its hot under the stage lights and his lipstick is melting. Mike Heylins wig wont stay on the top of his bald head and says the blonde one fitted better for this gig, Pete Waller is moaning off-stage shouting that the script is all wrong. Tim Marks and Chris Burt are dancing alluringly in front of the gasping audience not saying anything because they cant remember their lines. You Leon are in the orchestra pit holding up prompting cards for Tim and Chris. Bruno is in the pub and missing all the fun (or is he?) whilst I, stand singing a rendition of "Mares eat oats and doe's eat oats but little lambs eat ivy" flinch but carry on like a true pro as Phil Hackett chucks his ice cream tub at me from the cheap seats. And where exactly is the Great Popendo, master of illusion, great escape artist, whilst all this is going on top stage? Down below in the stage pit pint of beer in one hand and a smile a mile wide on his face. You've got to hand it to the guy. He's a damn sight cleverer than we all are. Steve Pope posting a thread, just watch the posters pour in. And I bet he's laughing his socks off right now. I'm off to the pub with Bruno. Regards, Lee. I might just check Tim and Chris's trouser pockets hanging in the dressing room for six quid on the way out. You never know your luck!

Dear Leon, And by the way, whilst we are talking about Steve Pope, well, I am, what about the guy? He comes on here, posts a thread and pooff! Gone in a cloud of smoke like the magician on stage leaving us all as assistants in sparkly dresses wondering where the hell he's gone. Alan Pearce is moaning because its hot under the stage lights and his lipstick is melting. Mike Heylins wig wont stay on the top of his bald head and says the blonde one fitted better for this gig, Pete Waller is moaning off-stage shouting that the script is all wrong. Tim Marks and Chris Burt are dancing alluringly in front of the gasping audience not saying anything because they cant remember their lines. You Leon are in the orchestra pit holding up prompting cards for Tim and Chris. Bruno is in the pub and missing all the fun (or is he?) whilst I, stand singing a rendition of "Mares eat oats and doe's eat oats but little lambs eat ivy" flinch but carry on like a true pro as Phil Hackett chucks his ice cream tub at me from the cheap seats. And where exactly is the Great Popendo, master of illusion, great escape artist, whilst all this is going on top stage? Down below in the stage pit pint of beer in one hand and a smile a mile wide on his face. You've got to hand it to the guy. He's a damn sight cleverer than we all are. Steve Pope posting a thread, just watch the posters pour in. And I bet he's laughing his socks off right now. I'm off to the pub with Bruno. Regards, Lee. I might just check Tim and Chris's trouser pockets hanging in the dressing room for six quid on the way out. You never know your luck!

Dear Leon, Wonderful stuff about the cyclists and ball players. Have we moved forums since I last posted? Are we going on the gardening site next? My front lawn could do with a quick mow. Steve Pope rang me yesterday. Lucky me. He was amazed at how fast I could type and how many words I could place on threads in an evening. Jesus Leon! What about you? And are we infact wasting our time. Just imagine how many childrens books we could bash out in a week. Its good money writing childrens books you know. Or is that what we are doing already but dont realise it? And if we are, how much money have we made so far? Elton. ELTON! Ooh ELTON!!

Dear Leon, Wonderful stuff about the cyclists and ball players. Have we moved forums since I last posted? Are we going on the gardening site next? My front lawn could do with a quick mow. Steve Pope rang me yesterday. Lucky me. He was amazed at how fast I could type and how many words I could place on threads in an evening. Jesus Leon! What about you? And are we infact wasting our time. Just imagine how many childrens books we could bash out in a week. Its good money writing childrens books you know. Or is that what we are doing already but dont realise it? And if we are, how much money have we made so far? Elton. ELTON! Ooh ELTON!!

Dear Leon, I have just read your last post in answer to Peters comments. Now I did think of taking your post piece by piece and answer in a way that would blow you out of the water. Again! But I'm not going to. Why? Leon, you are without doubt the master "wriggler". I cant begin to tell you how much pleasure your posts give me. No matter what is asked, or what crops up, you come back with well chosen criss cross weaving words that would make a ferret jealous. I rather feel that the "individual" opinion stance is wearing a bit thin now though. Because one would assume that SAA officers hold an opinion as an individual, then as soon as they attend meetings or write anything in their "official" SAA capacity, they reach in Worzel Gummage style for their "SAA Head" chucking their "Individual Head" on the compost heap. You guys really are a piece of work if you think that us Aunt Sally's or the Crowman is going to swallow that daft excuse. Still, I salute you for your untrammelled replies. I hope the Beetle Beer doesn't get you before we in the RSSG manage to get the best from you. Eeberdip, werberdip, so it shall if ey's never eats anurther cream cake again so it should so I shall! Regards, One very amused guy.

Dear Leon, I have just read your last post in answer to Peters comments. Now I did think of taking your post piece by piece and answer in a way that would blow you out of the water. Again! But I'm not going to. Why? Leon, you are without doubt the master "wriggler". I cant begin to tell you how much pleasure your posts give me. No matter what is asked, or what crops up, you come back with well chosen criss cross weaving words that would make a ferret jealous. I rather feel that the "individual" opinion stance is wearing a bit thin now though. Because one would assume that SAA officers hold an opinion as an individual, then as soon as they attend meetings or write anything in their "official" SAA capacity, they reach in Worzel Gummage style for their "SAA Head" chucking their "Individual Head" on the compost heap. You guys really are a piece of work if you think that us Aunt Sally's or the Crowman is going to swallow that daft excuse. Still, I salute you for your untrammelled replies. I hope the Beetle Beer doesn't get you before we in the RSSG manage to get the best from you. Eeberdip, werberdip, so it shall if ey's never eats anurther cream cake again so it should so I shall! Regards, One very amused guy.

Dear Alan, Sharpy's black sense of humour aside. Or even his realistic view of things; Leon and yourself Alan, have viable points on the subject of a "political" forum. I remember suggestiung the same thing myself some while ago and many disagreed with my views back then. Were you one that disagreed with the creation of a political forum back then Alan? Anyway, no matter because their IS a certain reality arising from seemingly "politically" motivated or orientated threads. That reality being I suppose many fold but the main ones are; Political threads DO get a lot of hits and thats a fact. This is not a fact just on AN, but many other sites as well. Like Leon rightly implies, "give um a whiff of blood, and watch the wolves gather". This may be so. I feel also, that a certain "good" can come from debate on opposing sides of an argument even though certain comments can "sting" at the time of reading them. From these sometimes heated debates, comes an understanding of perceptions if not enlightenment for a new way forward. The problem with "hidding away", if that is the right term, of "hot" angling issues within the strict confines of its own corner, is the very fact that some, no, a lot, of anglers won't ever read them as time goes on. It would remain the domain of the few running headlong into padded walls with crash helmets on. And that my friends, would infact stiffle the "hot" issues away from your rank and file angler who just wants to go fishing. And if it did, no-one apart from the head bangers would ever know whats going off in the "doing" world of angling politics. Pete Sharp might even suggest going further in giving the head bangers such as myself and others our own island, perhaps somewhere in the South China Sea's with bamboo padded walls gallore for us all to run at heads down for eternity so that anglers/fishermen can just go fishing back over here. Sharpy might well have a point if he did suggest such a thing. The thing to do is learn from recent debate. And no matter how good or clever we all think we are, myself included especially, we can learn and move forward. Not in opposition, but by working together. Some have to accept the right for others to exist in their own way working for what they truly believe in, again, in their own way. And those that demand to exist must embrace those that are already in place working for their own memberships. We all must start to tear down any walls between us, because they are, merely paper thin. Out there, in the world that is angling, the massive majority of anglers/fishermen DONT belong to anything. I even have strong doubts that the actual numbers of anglers there are in our island is correct either. There could indeed be far more than perhaps is being admitted because I doubt if EA enforcement would admit to loosing the war on license dodging. To say that one body represents all none joined anglers is wrong in principle. But; The NAA IS what's here now, in this moment in angling history. Admittedly, the NAA is not perfect, the MOU demonstates this to those who oppose it. But this imperfection, as seen in the eyes of some, should not bring about the seige of the NAA walls to bring them down. We have walked too far, and built too much to do that. And we should be looking at taking what we have already and insist that it be made better. The RSSG has arrived. It is being driven by passionate river anglers that want its existence and it will not stop, not for a single second until it is fully established for river anglers right across this country of ours. Perhaps a bold or even impetuous statement to make admittedly but we are determined to make this happen and our momentum is growing daily. The SAA is here and is working for its specialist memberships. No one can seriously doubt its impact or the good things it has done for its members. We river anglers who want and embrace the rivers close season owe part of our on-going close season to the efforts made my the SACG and by their own words, the SAA in fighting any forthcoming battles for its continuence. The same dept is owed to the Barbel Society and others who will continue to fight for the same thing. Clearly, the walls might not be paper thin after all but merely an illusion that we conjure up ourselves. But I strongly feel that in order for a different vision to be seen, we have to start to look at things differently. Others, who are not in memberships of the six governing bodies of angling that make up the NAA, have every right to exist. They have every right to work for their own members aims and objectives and a national, if not human democratic right, to be listened too without having the constraint of "having" to be in NAA membership in order to do so. This government who says that we MUST be in NAA in order to be listened to is wholly wrong. Large or small, minority or majority, we all, each and every one of us have the equal right to be listened to. For this, or any government to be saying to angling, "come together or we have cloth ears" is just no where near good enough. After all, they dont place similar constraints on others so why angling? And why has angling agreed to this demand? The RSSG and any subsequent rivers lobby it might be part of, will demand to be listened to as its structure grows. We take this as our voting democratic right given to everyone else in a free society. Angling, as we see it, is no different, or should be no different to any other groups within our society that are not lumped together for someone elses convinience. It remains a fact that because of this MOU between the NAA and the CA, there has risen a mistrust within angling. Any who doubt this are only fooling themselves. But now is the time surely to try and re-build the trust, if at all possible. And unless we all try, things go downhill from here on. Lets make a start at the next SAA meeting shall we? Oh, and bring your water pistol's. My vote goes to keeping political/envoronmental threads on the main forum for all to see. Birdy, I've had enough of your Allsorts. I want a Marsbar! One of them bigun's. ( I'm really leading up to a box of chocolates that cost three quid if you get my drift?) Regards, Lee.

Dear Alan, Sharpy's black sense of humour aside. Or even his realistic view of things; Leon and yourself Alan, have viable points on the subject of a "political" forum. I remember suggestiung the same thing myself some while ago and many disagreed with my views back then. Were you one that disagreed with the creation of a political forum back then Alan? Anyway, no matter because their IS a certain reality arising from seemingly "politically" motivated or orientated threads. That reality being I suppose many fold but the main ones are; Political threads DO get a lot of hits and thats a fact. This is not a fact just on AN, but many other sites as well. Like Leon rightly implies, "give um a whiff of blood, and watch the wolves gather". This may be so. I feel also, that a certain "good" can come from debate on opposing sides of an argument even though certain comments can "sting" at the time of reading them. From these sometimes heated debates, comes an understanding of perceptions if not enlightenment for a new way forward. The problem with "hidding away", if that is the right term, of "hot" angling issues within the strict confines of its own corner, is the very fact that some, no, a lot, of anglers won't ever read them as time goes on. It would remain the domain of the few running headlong into padded walls with crash helmets on. And that my friends, would infact stiffle the "hot" issues away from your rank and file angler who just wants to go fishing. And if it did, no-one apart from the head bangers would ever know whats going off in the "doing" world of angling politics. Pete Sharp might even suggest going further in giving the head bangers such as myself and others our own island, perhaps somewhere in the South China Sea's with bamboo padded walls gallore for us all to run at heads down for eternity so that anglers/fishermen can just go fishing back over here. Sharpy might well have a point if he did suggest such a thing. The thing to do is learn from recent debate. And no matter how good or clever we all think we are, myself included especially, we can learn and move forward. Not in opposition, but by working together. Some have to accept the right for others to exist in their own way working for what they truly believe in, again, in their own way. And those that demand to exist must embrace those that are already in place working for their own memberships. We all must start to tear down any walls between us, because they are, merely paper thin. Out there, in the world that is angling, the massive majority of anglers/fishermen DONT belong to anything. I even have strong doubts that the actual numbers of anglers there are in our island is correct either. There could indeed be far more than perhaps is being admitted because I doubt if EA enforcement would admit to loosing the war on license dodging. To say that one body represents all none joined anglers is wrong in principle. But; The NAA IS what's here now, in this moment in angling history. Admittedly, the NAA is not perfect, the MOU demonstates this to those who oppose it. But this imperfection, as seen in the eyes of some, should not bring about the seige of the NAA walls to bring them down. We have walked too far, and built too much to do that. And we should be looking at taking what we have already and insist that it be made better. The RSSG has arrived. It is being driven by passionate river anglers that want its existence and it will not stop, not for a single second until it is fully established for river anglers right across this country of ours. Perhaps a bold or even impetuous statement to make admittedly but we are determined to make this happen and our momentum is growing daily. The SAA is here and is working for its specialist memberships. No one can seriously doubt its impact or the good things it has done for its members. We river anglers who want and embrace the rivers close season owe part of our on-going close season to the efforts made my the SACG and by their own words, the SAA in fighting any forthcoming battles for its continuence. The same dept is owed to the Barbel Society and others who will continue to fight for the same thing. Clearly, the walls might not be paper thin after all but merely an illusion that we conjure up ourselves. But I strongly feel that in order for a different vision to be seen, we have to start to look at things differently. Others, who are not in memberships of the six governing bodies of angling that make up the NAA, have every right to exist. They have every right to work for their own members aims and objectives and a national, if not human democratic right, to be listened too without having the constraint of "having" to be in NAA membership in order to do so. This government who says that we MUST be in NAA in order to be listened to is wholly wrong. Large or small, minority or majority, we all, each and every one of us have the equal right to be listened to. For this, or any government to be saying to angling, "come together or we have cloth ears" is just no where near good enough. After all, they dont place similar constraints on others so why angling? And why has angling agreed to this demand? The RSSG and any subsequent rivers lobby it might be part of, will demand to be listened to as its structure grows. We take this as our voting democratic right given to everyone else in a free society. Angling, as we see it, is no different, or should be no different to any other groups within our society that are not lumped together for someone elses convinience. It remains a fact that because of this MOU between the NAA and the CA, there has risen a mistrust within angling. Any who doubt this are only fooling themselves. But now is the time surely to try and re-build the trust, if at all possible. And unless we all try, things go downhill from here on. Lets make a start at the next SAA meeting shall we? Oh, and bring your water pistol's. My vote goes to keeping political/envoronmental threads on the main forum for all to see. Birdy, I've had enough of your Allsorts. I want a Marsbar! One of them bigun's. ( I'm really leading up to a box of chocolates that cost three quid if you get my drift?) Regards, Lee.

Dear Alan, Sadly, I feel that the only help in this case which is of course, after the event, that can be offered is in practical terms. Perhaps in work parties that might involve netting to re-stock certain species or weed clearance if this becomes a problem. Either way, I will contact Simon to tell him the RSSG is prepared to offer what practical help it can. It might be, that no outside help will be required but knowing angling clubs who like us all, struggle sometimes to get people to help out, our offer to help in practical terms will be appreciated I'm sure. I will place your name on the list Alan of those wanting to help and many thanks. Regards, Lee.

Dear Alan, Sadly, I feel that the only help in this case which is of course, after the event, that can be offered is in practical terms. Perhaps in work parties that might involve netting to re-stock certain species or weed clearance if this becomes a problem. Either way, I will contact Simon to tell him the RSSG is prepared to offer what practical help it can. It might be, that no outside help will be required but knowing angling clubs who like us all, struggle sometimes to get people to help out, our offer to help in practical terms will be appreciated I'm sure. I will place your name on the list Alan of those wanting to help and many thanks. Regards, Lee.

Dear All, I have some very sad and disturbing news to report concerning a stretch on the River Witham just outside Grantham. Before I comment on this event, I will quote from the local newspaper, The Grantham Journal of Friday April the 12th; "All life in the River Witham between the villages of Barkston and Claypole choked to death when 18,000 litres of nitrates seeped through the ground and into a nearby water course creating ammonia. Brown trout, chub, roach and grayling, some measuring more than a foot long, were pulled out of the river. Nothing survived. It is believed that vandals forced open a valve on a fertiliser tank. Pollution prevention and control officer John Giles said the Environment Agency arrived on the scene at 8.30am on Thursday, following reports from villagers of seeing dead fish. John said," We believe that the valve was forced open on Wednesday evening. It had a devastating impact. The liquid fertiliser contained nitrates and sulphates but it was the ammonia which had the toxic input". "We traced it as far as Lincoln, (this is nearly thirty miles away!) although by then, it was to diluted to present any problems". John stated, "Our investigation is ongoing". The tank was on isolated farmland at Barkston Gorse Farm, between the Viking Way and the River Witham. Grantham Angling Association secretary Simon Sheilds said, " I'm shocked and devastated. I cant believe any mindless moron could do this. Surely they couldn't realise they have destroyed a whole ecosystem". "Its not just a matter of re-stocking. The nitrate will lead to prolific growth of weeds and take all the oxygen. Ducks, swans, kingfishers, grebes, herons, and invertebrates are all effected". "We have just carried out work with a £32,000 grant for habitat improvements down-stream of Girder bridge. Thats all been wasted now". PC Andy Roberts of Grantham police said, "Its wiped out a very clean stretch of fishing water used by anglers. Someone, deliberately wrenched open the valve. The liquid nitrites alone were worth £1,818, not to mention all the subsequent damage caused. Words just cannot describe the sight of all those dead fish. They were wiped out for 10 miles. It was just terrible". PC Roberts wants witnesses to contact him on Tel No 01400 272470. My Comments; Now I know Simon Shields and the rest of the guys on the Grantham Angling Association committee very well. Their input and involvement to their fishing club for the benefit of their membership is just about as good as it gets. Over the many long years since the club was formed way back in the mid 1800's, their members now enjoy some of the most fantastic fishing on rivers and stillwaters for miles around. They have their own private stock ponds where they rear on fish, their fisheries equipment, nets etc is so good that the EA borrow it from time to time. Indeed, the GAA guys very often help out the EA fisheries guys going to help out at various netting parties where ever they are needed. The partnership between the GAA and the EA is a shining example for all fishing clubs to follow and a remarkable testament of just what can be achieved by fishing clubs and the EA working closely together. Simon, although quite a young man, has been majorly instumental in fighting battles for local anglers going right up to government level in the Houses of Parliament, and winning! Undertaking various environmental studies on GAA waters and is a member of the Institute of Fisheries Management. He also works tirelessly as head bailiff for the GAA. Simon has always been a major campaigner for the ACA locally for years and knows Jane and Bob James of the ACA personally from the days they both lived in Grantham. Even though the GAA are members of ACA, I am unsure how the ACA would proceed in a case like this and exactly who, they would seek compensation from. Let us all hope that the ACA gets a successful result towards compensation for the lost fish stocks as quickly as possible for the GAA. This particular stretch of the River Witham, indeed all the stretches of this lovely river under the control of the GAA, would be at home in the chalk belts in the South because of its similarity to a chalk stream or river. The amount of work that the GAA guys have undertaken for themselves on this particular stretch in partnership with EA is mind blowing. Sadly, all of this hard work undertaken over many years by many caring anglers has now been destroyed in the matter of a few hours. I will be contacting the GAA officially this week to offer help from the RSSG. Although our help will probably only take the form of practical help that may be required in the form of weed clearence etc, I know for certain that a few extra hands at any subsiquent work parties would make all the difference. To end with, this event sad and most terrible as it is, does clearly demonstrate just how vunerable our rivers really are. And it is not until a beautiful thing dies, that we really all start to sit up and take notice. If you have not already done so, please give some serious thought to joining the ACA. And if you are fishing club members who's club is not in ACA membership, please talk to your club about ACA membership. The GAA case certainly highlights the need to be protected against this sort of thing happening to your own local rivers and remember, pollution comes in many forms that are not always as a result arrising from mindless actions of vandalsm. Please also realise, the RSSG is formed to offer practical help to local fishing clubs and their local anglers. The more members we have nationally, the more we can help out in cases like the GAA one. Please think seriously about becoming a member of RSSG. Its only £3 to join. The more members we have, the more we can help. Surely thats got to be worth just three quid. Regards, Lee. [ 14 April 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: trent.barbeler ]

Dear All, I have some very sad and disturbing news to report concerning a stretch on the River Witham just outside Grantham. Before I comment on this event, I will quote from the local newspaper, The Grantham Journal of Friday April the 12th; "All life in the River Witham between the villages of Barkston and Claypole choked to death when 18,000 litres of nitrates seeped through the ground and into a nearby water course creating ammonia. Brown trout, chub, roach and grayling, some measuring more than a foot long, were pulled out of the river. Nothing survived. It is believed that vandals forced open a valve on a fertiliser tank. Pollution prevention and control officer John Giles said the Environment Agency arrived on the scene at 8.30am on Thursday, following reports from villagers of seeing dead fish. John said," We believe that the valve was forced open on Wednesday evening. It had a devastating impact. The liquid fertiliser contained nitrates and sulphates but it was the ammonia which had the toxic input". "We traced it as far as Lincoln, (this is nearly thirty miles away!) although by then, it was to diluted to present any problems". John stated, "Our investigation is ongoing". The tank was on isolated farmland at Barkston Gorse Farm, between the Viking Way and the River Witham. Grantham Angling Association secretary Simon Sheilds said, " I'm shocked and devastated. I cant believe any mindless moron could do this. Surely they couldn't realise they have destroyed a whole ecosystem". "Its not just a matter of re-stocking. The nitrate will lead to prolific growth of weeds and take all the oxygen. Ducks, swans, kingfishers, grebes, herons, and invertebrates are all effected". "We have just carried out work with a £32,000 grant for habitat improvements down-stream of Girder bridge. Thats all been wasted now". PC Andy Roberts of Grantham police said, "Its wiped out a very clean stretch of fishing water used by anglers. Someone, deliberately wrenched open the valve. The liquid nitrites alone were worth £1,818, not to mention all the subsequent damage caused. Words just cannot describe the sight of all those dead fish. They were wiped out for 10 miles. It was just terrible". PC Roberts wants witnesses to contact him on Tel No 01400 272470. My Comments; Now I know Simon Shields and the rest of the guys on the Grantham Angling Association committee very well. Their input and involvement to their fishing club for the benefit of their membership is just about as good as it gets. Over the many long years since the club was formed way back in the mid 1800's, their members now enjoy some of the most fantastic fishing on rivers and stillwaters for miles around. They have their own private stock ponds where they rear on fish, their fisheries equipment, nets etc is so good that the EA borrow it from time to time. Indeed, the GAA guys very often help out the EA fisheries guys going to help out at various netting parties where ever they are needed. The partnership between the GAA and the EA is a shining example for all fishing clubs to follow and a remarkable testament of just what can be achieved by fishing clubs and the EA working closely together. Simon, although quite a young man, has been majorly instumental in fighting battles for local anglers going right up to government level in the Houses of Parliament, and winning! Undertaking various environmental studies on GAA waters and is a member of the Institute of Fisheries Management. He also works tirelessly as head bailiff for the GAA. Simon has always been a major campaigner for the ACA locally for years and knows Jane and Bob James of the ACA personally from the days they both lived in Grantham. Even though the GAA are members of ACA, I am unsure how the ACA would proceed in a case like this and exactly who, they would seek compensation from. Let us all hope that the ACA gets a successful result towards compensation for the lost fish stocks as quickly as possible for the GAA. This particular stretch of the River Witham, indeed all the stretches of this lovely river under the control of the GAA, would be at home in the chalk belts in the South because of its similarity to a chalk stream or river. The amount of work that the GAA guys have undertaken for themselves on this particular stretch in partnership with EA is mind blowing. Sadly, all of this hard work undertaken over many years by many caring anglers has now been destroyed in the matter of a few hours. I will be contacting the GAA officially this week to offer help from the RSSG. Although our help will probably only take the form of practical help that may be required in the form of weed clearence etc, I know for certain that a few extra hands at any subsiquent work parties would make all the difference. To end with, this event sad and most terrible as it is, does clearly demonstrate just how vunerable our rivers really are. And it is not until a beautiful thing dies, that we really all start to sit up and take notice. If you have not already done so, please give some serious thought to joining the ACA. And if you are fishing club members who's club is not in ACA membership, please talk to your club about ACA membership. The GAA case certainly highlights the need to be protected against this sort of thing happening to your own local rivers and remember, pollution comes in many forms that are not always as a result arrising from mindless actions of vandalsm. Please also realise, the RSSG is formed to offer practical help to local fishing clubs and their local anglers. The more members we have nationally, the more we can help out in cases like the GAA one. Please think seriously about becoming a member of RSSG. Its only £3 to join. The more members we have, the more we can help. Surely thats got to be worth just three quid. Regards, Lee. [ 14 April 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: trent.barbeler ]

Dear Alan, I will reply to your post in due course. I am at the moment tied up with writing up another thread. One that saddens me greatly. Regards, Lee.