Elastic modulus

[Guest Mike Connor]

I thought this might be of some interest.

 

 

Thomas Young, an English Doctor and physicist, coined The term "Modulus", in the early 1800´s. The term is used as a constant in equations, as "Young´s Modulus", to calculate specific properties of certain materials.

 

In simple terms it may be seen as a description of a material´s property of resistance to bending.

 

Calculations using this, are essential for developing the fibres used in many modern composite constructions. The fibres, such as carbon fibre, Kevlar, fibre glass etc, provide the stiffness, at the same time reducing the weight which using other materials would involve, ("Standard", carbon fibre is about thirty % of the weight of aluminium , and roughly 250% stiffer ,)and the resins used hold the whole thing together.

 

So what does this have to do with fishing rods?, and why is the term "Elastic Modulus" so often bandied about?

 

It has to do with them, insofar as the term may be applied to the materials used in their construction. IM6 Graphite for instance, which you mentioned. IM6 has a modulus of about 35 million, although many manufacturers use fibres of much higher modulus. IM6 is actually only a trade name for Hercules fibre in any case.

 

However this may be, the fibres used in rod construction are only a part of the story. The taper, wall thickness, and of extreme importance, the resins used, are at least as important. In actual fact, of even greater importance than the modulus of the fibres used.

 

Rod designs vary considerably, and this may be controlled by any and all of the factors above. Using a suitable design, resins etc., practically any rod action may be obtained, anything from a floppy noodle, to as stiff as a poker. This really has little to do with the modulus of the fibres used, and is mainly the result of other design factors. Although higher modulus fibres may be used to produce stiffer lighter rods, they may also be used to produce noodles if desired. Lower modulus fibres may also be designed to produce fairly stiff rods, and in general, will be more robust than their high modulus counterparts, as the material used is less brittle to start with.

 

The modulus given by manufacturers only applies to the fibre used, and once this has been built into a composite, ( sometimes also rather inaccurately referred to as "laminates" ), it no longer applies, as the actual modulus of a finished rod is not dependent on the fibre used, but more on how it is used in the construction, wrapping, resin bonding, etc.

 

Various marketing departments have swooped on the term "modulus", and use it quite indiscriminately for all sorts of things, few of which have to do with the properties of finished fishing rods. It is basically hype.

 

It is not possible to compare fishing rods in any meaningful way by calculating their elastic modulus, and using the elastic modulus of the fibre used in their construction as a basis for such "calculations", is just nonsense, and will tell you nothing useful at all about the rods in question.

 

Attempting to build a composite rod blank at home, in the garage, workshop etc, using materials and tools available to even the "advanced" hobbyist, is a more or less impossible undertaking, and I would advise you to forget it. Simply wrapping fibre-glass matting, or even carbon fibre matting, assuming you might be able to obtain some, around a tapered mandrel, tunking it with activated resin, and allowing it to set, is extremely unlikely to result in a usable fishing rod, much less a good one.

 

To answer one of your original questions with regard to modulus, I know of no simple way to measure the modulus of fibres themselves. This stuff comes from the factory on rolls, as a form of "fabric", and the specifications are known. How one might go about measuring a piece of this in order to determine the elastic modulus of the fibres, I have no idea, although the manufacturers are obviously able to do so. Searching the web, or a library with good engineering literature should provide you with such information, assuming you still require it.

 

Various equations, calculations, recipes, specs etc. used when producing my blanks would do you no good at all, as they were material and circumstance dependent, and your chances of reproducing such are basically zero.

 

The quality of modern composite fishing rods is dictated primarily by the hardware and cosmetics. Practically any modern blank, even Far East cheapies, will make decent fishing rods if such materials are used. The price of finished rods is due to a very large number of factors. In some cases these prices may be inflated as you say, but once again, comparing raw material prices to finished rods is absolutely ridiculous. If this were true, then cane rods would cost next to nothing, as bamboo is a grass which grows like a weed, and basically costs nothing. This is patent nonsense of course.

 

There is considerable controversy about cheap rods vs. expensive rods etc. Some people maintaining that a cheap rod can not possibly be as good as an expensive one, merely because of its very cheapness. This is factually incorrect of course, certainly as far as composite rods are concerned, there are quite a number of very good cheap rods available. If you put good quality hardware and cosmetics on a "cheap" blank, then you no longer have a "cheap" rod.

Composite blanks are by their nature "cheap" products, as they may be mass reproduced easily and consistently at will, once the specifications are known. Pricing policies of various firms have little to do with the quality of their blanks, although of course may reflect good quality to some degree.

 

There is no way at present of mathematically comparing various rod blanks to one another in any meaningful or useful way, as most anglers choose their rods absolutely subjectively, based on how it "feels", how it "looks", price, manufacturers name, "modulus", etc etc. Quantifying such things is an impossibilty. Some manufacturers, and a number of other interested parties have been working on various systems of definition and comparison for some time, but as far as I am aware, nothing of general application has yet emerged.

 

If you think that a very expensive rod is better than some other less expensive tool, then you must perforce buy the expensive one. One thing is certain, it will not catch you any more fish than a cheapie. Although pride of ownership, "bragging value" etc may be greater.

 

When I built the blanks you mention, I had the assistance and knowledge of quite a few people behind me, and also access to factory capabilities, various types of fibre, and a whole range of specialist resins, which are impossible to obtain for a private individual under normal circumstances. Although I was originally obliged to meet a "price target" for the finished rods, price was not really actually an issue, as the final retail price of a fishing rod has little to do with its ex-factory cost.

 

Quite excellent rods which cost four dollars ex-factory in Korea, or Taiwan, are regularly sold in Europe and America under various brand names, for well in excess of two-hundred dollars. The final price has little to do with the cost of actually producing the rods, and certainly not with the raw material cost. Transport, advertising, several middle-men taking their profits, etc etc, all jack the price up.

 

This is also why comparing rods based on their retail prices is also absolutely senseless, as you have no way of knowing how this price was set. It may have absolutely nothing whatever to do with the quality of the rod.

 

Purely for informational purposes, the fibre used in my blanks was "standard" graphite, not IM6. Rods constructed of raw material which is less brittle to start with, are more robust, and should, theoretically at least, be less susceptible to damage, and also last a lot longer in normal use. This was one of my main aims.

 

Tools like rods, must not only be suitable for the application itself, fishing of course, but have a whole range of other properties which makes them more or less desirable for the purpose, and may be used to determine their "quality" more accurately than any mathematical equations relating to the stiffness or otherwise of materials used in their construction.

 

As far as I am aware, there are no absolutely conclusive studies about the useful working life of various composite rod-blanks, but modern resins, coupled with the manufacturing techniques now available should produce rods which will certainly last a very long time. There is some literature on the useful life of composites in aircraft manufacture, but this is highly technical, and not a great deal of use, as any conclusions drawn would have to be based on the use to which a material is put, and theoretical projections of such behaviour, with regard to composites built and used for other purposes would be suspect at least.

 

Apparently, bamboo is susceptible to "going floppy" after a while, presumably as the "springiness" of the power fibres lessens in use, to put it simply. This will also occur with other fibres, but will take much longer, and be less apparent. In fact it is unlilkely that a difference may be found at all in normal use, although it may be possible to measure one after a certain time in use. I am not aware of anyone having done this however. Although I have heard that this is often the case with bamboo, I have never actually attempted to measure or quantify it. Bamboo is interesting for a variety of reasons, and although I no longer have any bamboo rods, and the only ones I ever built were really quite awful, I still read a lot about it, and listen with interest to any comments etc from experts.

 

If you are absolutely bound and determined to produce a fishing rod from scratch, then your best bet is to build it from bamboo. Doing this is unlikely to be cheap, and there is no guarantee that you will even produce a half-way usable rod, but some people do manage this in a surprisingly short time. Some indeed managing to produce veritable masterpieces. There is a mass of information now available on building cane rods, and easily obtainable over the web.

 

Otherwise I would recommend you look around for suitable blanks, either composites, or split-cane, and build on these.

"Cheap" split-cane blanks should be avoided, as although bamboo itself is not particularly expensive in comparison to composites, blanks made from it are only as good as the skill and knowledge of the person or persons who built them, and the more expensive blanks are likely to be of considerably better quality for this quite simple reason.

 

I would have no qualms about using even the cheapest composite blanks to build on, as all I would have to lose would be the time involved and a few materials. Hardware etc may be used again, should the rod turn out to be useless, or not up to expectations in some way.

 

Hopefully all this is of some help to you. I decided to write such a long reply, as it was easier than answering the individual questions you posed.

 

Even though my name is listed at ********** and *******, and various other places, and I am prepared to answer general questions on fishing and tackle, as it is one of my primary interests, I am not an acknowledged or qualified expert on any of this material. I am also not a consulting agency, and I am unable to provide specific manufacturing details for various things.

 

I noticed that you also mailed me a couple of times last year on several subjects, and I sent fairly conprehensive replies. This information was obtained, in the main, from freely available sources, which is where I got most of it, over a period of time of course, and it should not be difficult for you to do the same. My time is valuable and limited, and you may appreciate that replies like this take longer than five minutes to compose.

 

Technical definitions may be quite easily obtained for all sorts of things nowadays, interpreting some of these is considerably more difficult, but if you wish to pursue some of these things, then you really have no choice but to apply yourself.

 

I am not a qualified mechanical engineer, in fact my main area of expertise is electronics, but I have studied the material involved here quite extensively, as a matter of interest, over some considerable time, probably more so than most pure hobbyists at least. Nothing I have written should be regarded as gospel, and other people may indeed have completely differing opinions on some things. Where facts are mentioned, they are correct as far as I was able to ascertain at the time of writing.

 

Also, none of the above should be regarded as an attempt to dissuade you from trying anything you like, I did so, even against quite considerable "expert" advice, and I am glad I did. I learned a lot, enjoyed myself, and the rods I produced were well received.

 

I am pleased you enjoyed my site, thank you for the kind words. None of this material, or similar stuff appears there, or ever will do so, mainly because it is not of really general interest. Most anglers could care less what their rods are made of, as long as they function properly,and perhaps have a lifetime guarantee !

 

Best wishes, regards and tight lines!

 

Mike Connor

[Guest Newt]

Mike - from what I've read of blank making, the getting a decent one from the older style fiberglass is difficult enough even with good factory production tools and totally impossible for a DIY effort at home.

 

Graphite or e-glass is lots more technically challanging and I'm almost surprised anyone was able to do it well.

 

As to the price/quality thing though, I have noticed that certain brands of rod are among the more expensive and seem worth it as they have consistantly better action than the less expensive ones. With the cheapies, you could probably try a couple hundred and get a good one. G Loomis comes to mind though as theirs all seem good. Not sure if they just scrap the bad ones or what.

 

I've messed around with some rod building - and hope to do more but only with blanks that someone else has made.

 

Even then, you can ruin a good one with poor wrapping, crap guides/rings, and such. Stil, with some care you can get a rod that is suited to you rather than the more generalized ones you buy as a finished product. Fun too when the weather is too bad to fish.

 

BTW - not fair to not say who this thread was aimed at.

[Guest Mike Connor]

Originally posted by Newt:

BTW - not fair to not say who this thread was aimed at.   [/b]

I get a lot of e-mail asking questions about various subjects. This was an answer to one such mail.

 

At one time I spent a great deal of time and trouble making all sorts of things, including rods, reels, vices, etc etc. I still do make quite a few things. In fact I am engaged in producing a new type of fly-line at this present time. Very difficult indeed, but also very absorbing.

 

All very interesting at any rate, but it was, and indeed is, incredibly difficult to persuade people that I was simply not interested in doing anything similar commercially.

 

Not that I particularly care, but it seems that more than a few people consider someone who "does something for nothing", as some weird type of dangerous nutcase!

 

In fact the guy to whom this reply was addressed offered me money to carry out his prototype production etc, as indeed quite a few firms have over the years. I am simply not interested. Angling is my hobby, and I owe a very great deal to people who have helped and encouraged me over the years. They did not expect remuneration for this.

 

As a consequence, making money at it seems unethical to me, and so I do not do it.

 

TL

MC

[Guest Mike Connor]

This post may help to illustrate why I feel it is important to help other anglers.

 

FISHING A "PROPER" RIVER

 

The rod was rather heavy and seemed too long, it was a nine foot six Sharpes #7 built cane rod, which I had got second hand from a friend who did not fish, but had gotten the rod as a present, after begging and cajoling for almost half a year, and paying most of my small savings. The fly-line was a cheap mill end, got from the remnants table at the local tackle shop, and the leader was a piece of six pound monofil about three yards long. These implements had cost me a small fortune, saved diligently from various jobs I had done, but I was mightily proud of them.

 

Attached to this was the pride and hope of a veritable multitude of fly-dressing experiments, a "Partridge and Orange" tied without the help of a vice, on a size ten hook using sewing thread and feathers from an old pillow.

 

My elder brother sat not too far away legering in the big pool with a thirteen foot match rod, and smiling indulgently at my efforts to cast the rig. He had come and picked me up early that morning, to take me out for the long promised day fishing on a "proper" river.

 

It was the Yorkshire Esk at Lealholme in the heart of the dales. We had got a bus to the railway station at Middlesborough, and then the train from there, we changed twice and after what seemed an eternity arrived at our destination. I was far too excited to appreciate the beautiful scenery flowing past the train windows, and instead sat sorting my small collection of flies and making plans for their baptism, and trying feverishly to remember all I had read about casting and reading the water and such. A fairly brisk walk brought us to the scene of operations, the "free stretch" at Lealholme, which only required a river board licence, and feverish preparations were then carried out in the hopeful expectation of catching a decent trout.

 

My impatience to start was further aggravated by my brother insisting that we eat something first. Strangely enough I remember this as though it were yesterday, we had halves of French bread from the village shop, broken open and then filled with great thick slices of ham cut roughly from a large chunk my brother had bought, with his wonderful pocket knife, and then smeared liberally with French mustard.

 

My brother got a foaming glass of ale from the pub over the bridge, and I got my first ever shandy. Following this memorable meal, we went down to the river and he set about putting his gear together, while I waded in in my bare feet, ignoring the sharp stones and extremely cold water, and scanned the water for signs of fish.

 

Such was my faith in the magical power of flies, having read everything I could get my hands on, concerning them, I had no doubt whatsoever that I was going to catch a bag-full. I scorned my brothers offer of a legering rod and worms, and determined to show him that the flies were superior to all known methods.

 

Not far away, under the bridge on the opposite side of the river was a large slack pool, and here swimming around apparently unconcerned by my machinations, where a group of lovely trout which seemed massive. I had already caught quite a few trout on worms in a few local becks, but not yet with a fly, and I was certain that this enchanted apparatus now in my possession would increase my chances practically to the point of certainty.

 

Shaking with nervous excitement, having watched the fish for several minutes I commenced operations. Try as I might I could not get my fly out far enough to reach the fish. After trying for quite a while I became aware of an older gentleman watching me from the bank. He called over and asked "doing any good ?" I said no, it was more difficult than I thought, and he nodded his head wisely.

 

He walked over and talked to my brother for a few minutes, and then came back to me. He asked me to step out for a minute and show him my licence, he was the Esk Fishery Association Bailiff for that stretch of the river, and he also controlled the free stretches. After checking my licence he asked to see my equipment, and asked if I would mind if he had a cast with it. I agreed, and after checking the fly and line, he rubbed some mud from the bank onto the fly, and then he moved down to behind a bush, pulled what seemed like an awful lot of line off the cheap tin reel accompanied by an awful high pitched grinding noise, and with one fluid motion of his arm and a single back-cast he placed the fly directly in front of one of the larger fish that was swimming placidly around the pool.

 

Difficult to say what happened next really, my recollections are a bit jumbled, suffice it to say the fish grabbed the fly, he struck, and handed me the rod, saying, "there you are, he´s all yours." Pure terror gripped me, the thought of losing such a wonderful fish which was plunging and bucking and tearing around like a mad thing on the end of the line gripped tightly in my hand caused me to forget all I had read about the correct procedure after hooking a fish. "Give him a little bit of line," came the quiet but firm advice, and I let go at once.

 

The fish tore off downstream accompanied by the most awful moaning screech from the reel, I was trembling and shaking so much with excitement that I was quite incapable of grasping the line again. "Let him run, but brake the line a little with your fingers," came the quiet but firm advice again. Somehow I managed to get hold of the line, and slow the seemingly unstoppable progress of the fish towards the sea and freedom. Accompanied by occasional calm comments from the man at my side, and after what seemed like an eternity, I finally managed to get some control over the creature, and my shaking and trembling reduced sufficiently to start getting some line back.

 

My brother in the meantime had come running with the net, and after further spirited struggles and nearly being lost twice through being touched by the rim of the net, the fish finally lay on the bank in the enclosing mesh.

 

My joy knew no bounds, forgetting all that I had learned I sat there gazing at this object of wondrous beauty, the gentleman asked my brother to fetch the priest, and the fish was dispatched. I sat holding and admiring the fish for what seemed an unconscionable time, feeling joyful that I had him, but also very sad at his death.

 

At last I removed the fly from the corner of his jaw, and just sat looking again for quite a while at his magnificence. My brother was obviously quite awed by the whole procedure as well, and did not say anything much apart from "congratulations, well done."

 

The gentleman complimented me on my excellent choice of fly, and my prowess in landing such a nice fish, and asked if he might see my other flies.

 

I handed him my small tin cigar box, and he spent quite some time looking over the various monstrosities contained therein, all of which had been tied with sewing thread and pillow feathers. "Very promising," was all he said. "I tie quite a few myself as well, perhaps you would like to come along and have a look at some?"

 

I was overwhelmed, and though my brother did not seem to be all that enthusiastic, my beseeching look must have forced him to overcome his natural taciturnity and Yorkshire forbearance, as he agreed, and we gathered up our gear and climbed into the gentleman´s car, and drove the relatively short distance to his house in a village just up the road a way.

 

He invited us in, offered us tea, and then took us into his angling room. My eyes very nearly popped out of my head. Rows and rows of rods and reels, serried ranks of the most beautiful flies, and a host of other incredibly beautiful objects met my astounded gaze. I had landed in wonderland!

 

He opened a large filing cabinet and took out some of his materials to show me. Unbelievable, almost beyond belief that a mere human being should possess such untold treasures. Capes of wonderful feathers, whole skins from various animals, the first Jungle Cock cape I ever saw, a thing of incredible and rare beauty, and a host of other marvels.

 

After a while he sat down at his workbench in front of the window, and asked me to pull up a stool. In an incredibly short space of time he tied up several beautiful flies, showing me exactly every operation in the clearest manner I have ever seen. I have no idea how long we were there, I know my tea went stone cold, and the biscuits provided remained untouched, and my brother scolded me afterwards for being so impolite as to let this happen.

 

Some time later we rose to leave, as we had to catch the train, the gentleman drove us to the station at Glaisdale, and just before we went on to the platform he gave me a small envelope containing the flies he had tied, and several more, saying if I was in the area again to have a look in.

 

Rather dazed by events I forgot my manners so much as to not even thank him, for which unforgivable lapse, I also earned a scolding from my brother. I can no longer remember the journey home, I spent most of it fingering the flies I had been given, before I apparently fell asleep. My brother took me back to where I lived and went on his way as he had to work that night and wanted to get some sleep in beforehand. I bored my mother to death for hours relating the fantastic events of the day, and begging and imploring that my fish be treated with all due ceremony and the greatest possible care.

 

About a month after this memorable event, my brother turned up on my birthday and presented me with a small wooden box with a sliding lid. It was a fly-tying kit from the firm of Veniard. It was full to the brim with all sorts of wonderful tools and feathers, and my enthusiasm knew no bounds. I immediately set out to tie all the flies in the small volume from the kit, and practically every free hour I had after that was spent reading books from the library and trying to copy the lovely illustrations from them, and to follow the rather difficult instructions contained therein.

 

I met the gentleman quite a few times several years later when I got my first bicycle, and cycled the forty mile round trip fairly often. He remembered me and asked me round several times for tea and a bit of fly-dressing. After a further couple of years I got my first motorbike, a 250cc BSA and I rattled round the dales and elsewhere on this for several years. Occasionally going to visit my friend.

 

His name was Mr.David Cook, and he was a Bailiff on the Esk for most of his life. Why he chose to help me out that day I do not know, he was rather feared and considered to be a grumpy old bugger by many who I met on the water over the years. He was the scourge of poachers and people fishing without a licence, but he was always very kind indeed to me.

 

When I read his obituary in one of the fishing magazines not all that long ago, I was rather surprised to discover that he was famous for his talents, and very well respected in the angling world. I often sit and think of him while I am tying up a few flies, and feel sorry that I never got round to thanking him as he deserved for helping out a strange small boy that day so long ago.

 

I fear nowadays such a thing would be hardly possible, older men approaching small boys for whatever reason probably being dangerous in the extreme, thanks to some of the more unfortunate trends in our society.

 

Perhaps this story will serve in some way to thank him now.

 

Hello David, wherever you are I hope you are still turning out your beautiful flies, casting your line to wondrous fish, and dispensing your calm quiet and confident advice to all those who ask of it.

 

Thank you very much my friend.

 

Tight lines. ~ Mike Connor

[Guest Newt]

Shandy and becks in American please.

 

The man will, as he should, live in your memory for quite a while.

 

Still, it would be nice to think there is somewhere that he is able to tie flies and catch fish and generally enjoy himself. This old world will certainly make more sense if there is such a place.

 

[This message has been edited by Newt (edited 21 December 2001).]

[Guest Mike Connor]

Originally posted by Newt:

Shandy and [b/becks in American please.

 

"Shandy" is a mixture of beer and lemonade.

 

"Beck" is a ( not only ), Yorkshire word for a small stream.

 

TL

MC