barry luxton
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Posts posted by barry luxton
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And 200 mile or the middle which ever is closer uk exclusive zone, give the EU the same rights as Iceland did, none at all.
And get the british war ships to patrol the areas, sink any transgressers, because it's britains turn to win the war and not icelands. We want cod.
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I would just like to add to the many posts already here, by saying that my impressions after the first programme were not altogether positive and as stated elsewhere I did not like it.
After this weeks programme I have to admit it is growing on me, a huge improvement IMO, and though still a little short on fishing content for my liking, overall I enjoyed it, and look forward to the next programme.
Finally, thank you Charles for taking the trouble to read the acclaim and the criticism and respond through the forum.
Yet another watchable travell and adventure programme, i'm glad you concentrate on fishing and not just catching, thanks Charles.
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Hi baz
What will happen in ten years when theres jack shyte for anyone to catch?
Hi Stavey,
Me first, thats what i have been asking Henry, as soon as he tells me i will pass it on to you.
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Right, there's been a lot of talk about whether RSA's and commercial fishermen can work together, or whether they would be prepared to. Well here's a little game we can play that will give us the answer.
It's now the year 2008 and the government of the day want to sort out the problems with the fishery once and for all. They've invited RSA's and commercial fishermen to sit around the table to thrash out the future of the fishery. You, Anglers Net contributors, are those people and this forum is the table. Thrash it out. What do you want? And are the opposition prepared to give it up?
For the duration of this thread, (and this thread only!), I will do my best to remain totally neutral and will act as referee. I won't get involved in any of the arguments and I won't express any bias towards either side. I will ask a few questions and if I think anyone is being unfair, I'll point it out. Apart from that I won't get involved in things. If the urge gets too much to bear, I will ask someone else to take over as neutral referee before diving in.
I'll get the ball rolling by stating what most sea anglers want, and how they think it might be achieved.
Recreational sea anglers want to be able to catch more and bigger fish. They think this can be achieved by placing restrictions on certain commercial fishing practices, which they see as being responsible for the decline in their catches over the last 20 or 30 years.
Over to you!
Steve my freind as someone who advocates no bull.......it i think you are on dangerous grounds where you ask hyporthetical questions, you might well get dumped on from a great hight and be left sitting in it. Seriously what a great thread i hope this one runs.
cheers barry
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That's what I feared, a commercial perception about things, and look where that brought us
It's a pitty but is seems anglers cannot count on all from the charter boat sector, not until more fish stocks are depleted and anglers don't bother charter for catching mini fish I guess.
Hi fishingsfine
I do not fully understand your last paragraph would you please expand on it?
cheers barry
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I refer to the statements I made in this post. Proof is in the pudding. Please see the statements written in the post. Look up the evidence for your-self.
No I want you to say it Henry, Just answer the one question then i will make up my own mind with regards to your petition, What would happen in ten years if the pain you propose now does not work. Thats All.
Cheers barry
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Dear Wurzel,
Why is it that just about every recreational big game fishery, I would say all but cannot prove it at this stage, albeit I do believe all encourage the process, in the world, have changed their tactics from keeping catches to catch and return.
Answer to preserve stocks. In the late 60s and early 70s hundreds of blue sharks were landed each week in Cornwall by RSA, as were hundreds of thousands of tonnes of mackerel, the mackerel by trawlers and RSA. I remember in 1968 filling five dustbins with mackerel for use as rubbydubby in about 2 hours with feathers, between 5 of us. That week (6 days) as well, that boat landed 40 rod and line caught blues, two makos, the largest being 390lbs, and 12 porbeagles. I was working then as crew on a charter boat.
BY the 80s there were no mackerel to be had, maybe 2 sharks a day being caught by RSA. A policy was introduced to only catch and return.
Stocks have and are continuing to recover. Albeit not to the levels in the sixties.
The scottish salmon rivers have started to see higher catch returns, following the buy outs of the estuary nets and drift netting stations in the north sea. I wonder why?
The Kola Peninsular salmon rivers, that were opened to RA after the collapse of the Berlin Wall in 1989, give on average 200 pus salmon a week to a party of Anglers, and still do, whilst between 1986 and 2000, when the remaining nets were bought off in Scotland, the average catch on even the top beats was not more than 10 salmon per week. I wonder why?
The answer. During the cold war 1948-1989, trawling around the Kola Peninsular was banned as it was the main north sea open port for the Russian Navy.
Just because I do not go out in a boat and shoot nets each day does not make me a congenital idiot, who has no right to say what is plain for all to see. One does not need to be a piscatorial scientist to see what is plain as daylight.
THE EMPOROR HAS NO CLOTHES.
Hiding your eyes and saying I can't see he doesn't have any and if I do I will have to admit the fact that he is not wearing any, is not going to give him any.
I am not dealing in perception, I am dealing in reality. You sadly are dealing in "not in my backyard" attitudes that won't help anyone.
It is as much your future that I am campaigning to protect as my enjoyment and sport and livelyhoods of the entire RSA industry in this country who rely on the stocks just as much as the commercials do.
Henry
Henry,
You still have not answerd my question. if after all the pain for the commercials and the shops etc. The result was not as you are predicting because of some other reason. What would you have to say then. (nice try but hard luck, try again for the next ten years)?
Over to you.
Cheers barry
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Then why do it by jumping on to such an extreme bandwagon, even ICES are not sure it would work for cod.
Why not petition for bigger MLS or to implement sustainable fishing methods eliminating discards, promote clean fisheries (no by catches like long lining, or large escape panels in trawls) make it advantages for fishermen to use these methods( more quota or days at sea )
These would be much more effective as it would cover all fishing areas and have the added bonus of backing by quite a lot of commercial fishermen.
Please set that one up as a petition wurzel, i would sign it first given the chance. Include something for the rsa sector as well.
cheers barry
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Barry, I also read in the papers that B52's and double decker busses have been found on the dark side of the moon, that Iraq is riddled with weapons of mass destruction, and that Sinclair C5's were going to be more popular than bicycles. But I'm really glad I dont recycle that information as I would look a complete ****.
However, what I do know is that in the Czech republic they do eat freshwater fish. Very true. But then they also have one of the most advanced system of fish farms and fisheries management in the world. This is a country where to get your fishing licence, you have to sit a test. How do I know this? Because I am studying for this same test at the moment. The purpose of the test is so that you understand the rules and regulations governing fishing in the country. The same country that frequently hosts world fly-fishing championships, such is the quality of its salmonoid fishing. Its rivers and lakes brim with fish, even though every angler is allowed to take two fish (or maximum 7 kg silver fish) per day for the table. And many do. But due to a combination of closed seasons, No take Zones and fish refuge areas, plus planting of spawn, this carefully managed fishery excels and prospers. If it wasnt for the communist occupation, and the focus on industry, there would still be salmon running the rivers. But the Czechs are wondefully adaptive people, and you can catch stocked Brook trout where the salmon used to be. Once you have passed the test, of course. So, that some people from Czech, Slovakia and surrounding countries have come and taken some fish from the rivers to the pot here in the UK I'm sure has happened. In actual fact, unless there are bylaws in place at the venue they are fishing, they are fully entitled, just like in Czech, to take two fish from the water (though thank god very few people do this in England, because our inland fisheries managment is in its infancy compared to Czech)
However, and here is the media spin. The papers would have you believe that groups of Eastern Europeans are barbecuing 30lb Pike and carp. Well, Nobody in the Czech republic would even think of trying to eat a fish that size. Because everybody knows that pike over 3 kilo, and carp over 4 kilo, are no good for eating at all. But the other thing I will say, and I have a lot of experience with Polish, Czech, Slovakian, Romanian, Lativan and Estonian people, is that when they come to this country they respect the rules in this country, unless of course they are here with criminal intent. All of my tenants are hard working, honest, concienctious and law abiding. They are far better tennants than the English and Brasilian ones that preceded them, to the point that I actively advertise for Czech people when a room becomes free. I get my rents on time and everything. Oh, and if they are feeling peckish, they are far more likely to pop into Asda's than down the nearest stew pond. Because they are respectful, intelligent people, from a country where family values are strong, Honesty still exists and people prefer to meet each other in the pub, to play guitar rather than X-box.
We should be taking lessons from them, especially in the application of NTZ's.......
Hi Fishyrob
We must read differant papers mate. I haven't seen any articles that you describe (busses and b52's) anyone else seen them? Therefore i wouldn't have the chance to include them or to exclude them as true. I'm happy for you where you state that you have good tennants, well done. Like red busses however, i'll wait for another (news story) to come along then perhaps we can discuss it to decide if it is true or not.
Their ntz's could you tell me if they include everyone or do they just exclude commercial? If they work apparently for the good of all, then i might just have to consider them.
Cheers barry
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Barry, Dinny knock it mate, till you've tried it..
..or, are you scared to try it ,in case you like it !!!!!! 
Don't know how it works mate, how about a few pictures
cheers
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I dunno why not Norrie.
The outfit to me looks somewhat like a sadist's kit?
cheers barry
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Pretty blonde though...... I take your point about the wording, it does look targetted towards commercials only, but dont forget this is a petition to the government, not setting a law down in the EU, if you get my point. Personally I see it as a way to show the government the level of concern that they are not taking ICES advice when deciding, or negotiating, fisheries policy. Others see it simply as a way to let the government know how many people are concerned about the marine environment. And I did re-read your posts. Do you crew on Offshore Rebel? I keep promising my Eastern European tennants a trip, but my regular charter boat wouldnt fish eight so comfortably. Perhaps the rebel could? And you could explain to them why they are hungry, because one of the guys asked me what you meant by that when they were reading over my shoulder the other day.
Challenger, just a summary would be enough, it might give some idea, although I can think now of more and more reasons that it wont be particularly scientific. For example, when you are wrecking, have you fished the same wrecks year in year out or do you tend to try new wrecks each year etc etc. Plus, I'm guessing that each year chasing the cod makes your boat and crew better at it It might give some indication though. It is very refreshing to hear you say that you feel that fishery management is paying off. NOt sure we can say the same down on the south coast though, at least where cod are concerned. Down here it seems to me that the whiting arent as thick as previous years either!
Hi Fishyrob,
you got this one in before mine this time. I don't crew for Paul, i wish i did, he had for the most part of this year a person called Ji who was blo.............dy grate. The rebel as you are aware is a cat the skippers brill, i have had my best year so far with him. He would take ten but prefers eight or nine, do try, i'm not canvassing for him honest. Do you not read the papers where there is a concern now and again where certain europeans are targeting fresh water rivers and lakes for lunch?
cheers barry
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quote fisyrob
Anyone reading this catching more and more fish, year on year?
Second thoughts Fishyrob,
I do fish all of the channel but for diversity do give weymouth port a try as it gets better every year as far as i'm concerned, fabulous. Looking forward to trying the north sea next year. I also wish to try the scillies, perhaps i'm greedy.
cheers barry
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If you wish to try to help towards protecting future fish stocks then please follow the link.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Seafishstocks/
Cheers
SDC
Shall we all start again?
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So I cannot say yes ro no to a take zone, I would have to know where and why and how big before answering that one - and I certainly like assesed first before answering anything: What difference would it make if angling continues within that zone?
Hi Fishings fine,
The above is questions that Henry has sidelined. I have asked prevoiusly why his petition is only for commercial, where to put the ntz, what happens after ten years if there is no improvement and the commercial boats, commercial activity and the general public would have suffered for what?
cheers barry
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Barry, if NTZ's were estabished, they would also affect RSA's, as NOTHING could be TAKEN from the ZONE. This is precedented by the fact that with the last cod bans, charter skippers and private boats were prohibited from landing cod also. This is also precedented by the fact that Bass Nursery Areas are also prohibited to both Commercial fishermen and RSA's (except from the shore, which I dont agree with) So please dont think that anglers wouldnt be affected, because they would. And I am sure if areas were designated that charter skippers were working, some would also jump on the Anti-NTZ cripple cart.
I am also very suprised that you find your fishing on the south coast unaffected by the changes. Perhaps you always fished for pouting and flounders? Its a shame, because fifteen years ago I could have taken you to catch double figure bass under beachy head, in numbers, or out on the TableTops. Or fishing for 4lb+ plaice from Hayling bay. Not hoping for, but fishing for. Or numbers of blonde Rays off various banks around Selsey bill. Or forty tope over thirty pounds in five hours fishing in the channel. Even in the last five years, the average size of the Black Bream on my trips has dropped by one third, and all the fishing mentioned before, I couldnt find for you anymore, even if you paid me double. So, I am definately not happy with the general standard of my fishing over the last ten years. I wonder if anybody else out there is happy with the level of their catches over the last decade. Anyone reading this catching more and more fish, year on year?
Wurzel, I would truly love to come out and see for myself you going about your business. Not possible this side of Christmas unfortunately, but the way the winds are happening, I guess you arent doing so much at the moment. I will PM you with contact details etc. But one other thing. I guess you are familiar with a bank called the Kentish Knock. Many of the older Essex RSA's, charter skippers and commercials will probably know the name with fondness. Tell me what happened there?
Hi Fishy rob, Perhaps you should re-read my posts, Of course i'm aware of the implications of ntz. The point that i have put forward recently is that the petition is refering to a ban on commercial only in differant areas. This to me is one sided. I have said prevoiusly if you read, that if there is ntz created the pain should be for all and not just commercial.
To give you a clue as to who i am perhaps you look at Paul Whittalls, skippers notice board on www.deepsea.co I'm the ugly one in red behind the picture of a blonde.
cheers barry
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anyone got any links or pics of how to tell Mrs crab from Mr crab ?
Why you after some rumpty pumty, could be painfull i hope you realise. Sorry i couldn't resist it.
regards
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I am not the expert who knows where the NTZs should be. I agree that all NTZs should include barring taking for fish-meal products, as these are an important part of the food chain. The point is however you look at it, trawlers do damage stocks and also sea beds. The fact that they can now target shoals better than they could, due to modern technology has not helped the problem.
I have however been sea fishing for 24 years plus and seen the a dreadful decline in sizes and quantities over that time. Ask anyone who has been fishing longer than I have and they will say that it has got worse faster than before then. Also if you look at catch reports just after the last war, when hardly any trawlers were able to fish for 6 years. the catch rates for both shore and sea were vast. Besides modern studies, that surely is where the proof comes from that shows if you rest an area, stocks multiply.
At the end of the day, we all know the fish are disappearing, admittedly some sorts are on the increase, this is because of the disruption to the food chain caused by efficient trawling.
If something is done now, trawling can survive. if it is not, no one, RSAs trawlers or anyone will be be able to fish.
A petition is meant to cause thought and debate to come up with a workable solution. If I drafted it to take into account every ones' point of view, it would be thirty pages long and would lose the interest of all readers.
Henry
Hi Henry,
Just worked it out. i have been an rsa for forty years, up and down the south coast mainly. All in all i would say that i am mainly happy with my fishing exsperiance except for some obvious aspects of it. I have seen a huge increase in the last couple of years of small codling at the upper end of the channel. i have seen a large increase in the ammount of bass caught by rsa anglers both up and down the channel. I have seen a brilliant diversity of fishing in the middle channel including the channel islands.I do consider that there could be more done with regards to assisting fish stocks but to suggest ntz's just for commercial is too radical and one sided.
cheers barry
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Also in addition to my previous please see extract from another forum on here:
"Using computer models of cod growth, recruitment and fishing, the study went on to
examine in the cool and warm periods what size of cod stock was possible under
different fishing pressures. It found that the North Sea spawning cod stock, if cod
had been fished during 1988-2001 so that it produced the maximum sustainable
yield, could have been approximately 260,000 tonnes, which would have sustainably
supported a fishery during that period of 180,000 tonnes each year.
This result is very clear and worth repeating. Even given the warming in the North
Sea that happened between 1988-2001, and all the observed changes in the food-chain,
if we had fished cod at a lower level the ecosystem could possibly have sustained a spawning stock of 260,000 tonnes. In actual fact over this period the
spawning stock size decreased from 150,000 tonnes to less than 50,000 tonnes.
If we had fished cod at a lower level, the catches would have been higher. This at
first does not seem to make sense. But taking a small portion of a large stock gives
us a bigger catch than taking a large portion of a small stock. If North Sea cod had
been fished at a lower level, it could have supported a sustainable annual catch of
180,000 tonnes.
So, even with the climate changes that have occurred taken into account, the North
Sea cod population is lower than it could be, and this is a result of fishing pressure. If
the fishing pressure was reduced, the North Sea, even under current climatic
conditions, could support a larger, sustainable cod fishery and a healthy cod stock.
Using a single-species modeling approach, the North Sea, even given the
climatic conditions we have experienced since the 1980s, could presently
be supporting a sustainable cod spawning biomass of about 260,000
tonnes, which in turn could be supporting a sustainable fishery of 180,000
tonnes each year. The reason that we do not have this size of stock is
due to the high fishing pressure we have subjected the stock to. Cod is
not moving north; rather we are fishing out the southerly components of
the stock. There still remain large areas of potential habitat for North Sea
cod at suitable temperatures. We can not blame climate for the decline
of North Sea cod.
QUOTEIn the short-term, cod can recover - whichever climate change scenario was
used. If the fishery does not misreport catch, the management regime can
recover the stock to 150,000 tonnes within 6 years. If the fishery includes
misreporting, the recovery takes 15 years.#
Kind regards
Henry
Henry, no disrespects mate but you still have not responded to answer my many questions you have only indicated someones suggestion of one item, cod stocks and takes. Don't know about wurzel but in the last few years, have the takes been reached as recommended or have the trawlers fell short of the targets? Or has the take exceeded what has been laid down. Was the cod taken by trawling or was there another reason for their dissaperance or migration? In one period the take is for 100,000 tons, was this caught or have they migrated. Is that what you are refering to and the possible dammage and or effect this had on the existing stock? Perhaps this is where you could address your petition. The eu again as they set the legalization for the north sea, apparently. Perhaps we ought to petition to leave the eu and then get the uk to set a hundred mile ntz limmit for everyone.
regards barry
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Hi Leon. some one has nicked the north sea on your map?
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Barry,
"huge factory ships" ? Who says what is a "factory ship" ? or what is "huge" . I doubt a 300ft multimillion purser feels huge 100 miles off Shetland in january....
Why do you believe this HUGE fleet of FACTORY ships apparently cannot catch what the scientists tell them they should be able to?
When did this split between what these guys do, and the nonsense we now read in our papers occur? can we put a date on it?
Yes i would rather be on a 300 foot trawler than a 30 footer that far off in Jan. I understand again as in my last post that the recommendation is to consider closing the sand eel fishery after what seems to be a short period of time when the advise was that it is sustainable. Its all very well using the backup of scientists when the argument fits, however there is many instances on this forum where the comments are that they don't know what they are talking about and its no use as their proposals will not be taken up by the men in suits.
cheers barry
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As the originator of the petition, I am happy to speak personally on the telephone with, meet with, argue with on any forum about my belief and the reason behind it.
I would like however to put in record now, before we go any further; I am not taking sides. I am doing one thing and one thing alone.
Putting into peoples minds that enough is not being done, however you dress it up, to preserve and allow fish stocks to recover.
Lets face facts. What I am saying is true. Whether it is global warming or over fishing, the result is the same.
NO FISH.
Just because it is one reason or the other is totally irrelevant. The only answer is to stop fishing altogether!!
Because global warming will not stop soon enough to have the desired effect, we have to manage the problem.
War is not management Wurzel. Reasoned debate and impassioned argument some-times can be!
The fact remains, and I do have some experience here, I have been rod and line fishing, sea, shore and salmon for 24 years, all over the world.
The catch rates have declined across the board. The only places where stocks have not declined is where, sorry about this, trawling has been disallowed for reasons of defence, Russia, or conservation, Canada and Iceland and the US.
What sort of scientific advice do we need? It is as plain as the sun rising in the morning.
If what I propose, is half implemented, commercial fisherman and RSAs alike will have both a living and a sport.
If it is not, none of us will. I beg you therefore to bring your friends and support this petition.
As I said at the beginning I am happy to meet or talk to anyone personally or on an open forum. I do however run my business from home, and therefore cannot disclose my telephone or e-mail address on a public forum. I will go bust trying to answer the phone.
If anyone wishes to speak to me personally about this, send me a PM.
Henry
(Trubshaw)
Hi Henry,
Still too many questions. What would you say if after ten years your radical proposel does not come to fruition. In the mean time putting many people out of work short term for no long term gain? Its not the british goverment that controls the north sea for example its the eu. Where do you propose these ntz purly for commercial activity. Waste of time around gas rig and potted areas as JB suggests. Other causes and reasons for lack of fish are just as important and must be relevant. For the rsa to stop fishing in areas is palatable but for the commercial sector it is disasterous.
regards barry
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Hi Barry,
Would it be better if a bigger boat caught the same and remained less "submarine like" so as not to upset onlookers? I'd hope JB would relook at that one; plays on emotions but means what?
There has been a lot of mud thrown at the Danish sandeel boats over the years; UK commercials, the greens, and anglers have all laid into them. Trouble is that when you look for evidence its just not there.
All the stuff i've seen supports wurzels point; why are the "fished" (and they are, or rather were, heavily fished) and the "unfished" sandeel stocks (sandeels are not one big stock but many) failing in unison atm?
The biggest fishery in the North Sea (sandeels not cod) has "collapsed" over the past couple of years, even though, as I understand it anyway, it was sticking to the fisheries scientists advice.
That seems more worrying to me than "submarine trawlers" ?.
Chris
Thanks for your comments Chris. I agree the issue is not at present trawling for the sand eel that is the immediate problem as i understand that some of the boats cannot even reach their target quotes. However, apparently there are huge or was recently huge factory ships targeting the sand eel. My overall concern is that have they been all ready taken, if not where have they gone, or is there something that is preventing them from recovering. Again i consider this to be a very important link in the chain. I further understand that there could well be a further ban on fishing for them after they said that the fishery was sustaianable in the not so distant past.
cheers barry
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Question is, is this the SFC admitting there are problems by banning the pair teams only so the RSA have less to moan about when they are slammed with a bag limit system. Well i hope not but the underhand way that some commercials work I would not be overly surprised.
I cannot see it happening, after the sfc subbmitted their proposels they then issued the prevoius years commercial catch report indicating a very healthy fishery. If they did it would be the biggest own goal
in the tourist, boat charters, rsa's history i think. Won't be long now.
cheers barry
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