phil hackett

Here's one qualified professional Ecologist and Angler for over 45 years, who won't sign it for the reasons you've stated Wroms!

All very interesting, but all the breeding programmes for otters in the UK were shut down in 1999/2000 after the release of the last of the 117 animals that were bred. It (the breeding programme) was also claimed as a success by all the partners. So where are the otters you claim will be released up until 2010 come from, and more importantly being bred? BTW UK BAP stands for United Kingdom Biodiversity Action Plan It was drawn up by HM Govt (Dept. Environment as it then was) after consultation with interested parties. And to my knowledge no angling group, Assiciation or angling body nationally raised any objections to it at the time.

I'd agree with you it isn't as simple as that, most of the energy from the wave orbitals is dissipated as they hits the shallow water and the bank. The swash (rebound backwards) is minimal and as I pointed out earlier only reach a max of 20 yards backwards travel. I've never seen Wingham but, have seen many other pits, and wouldn't disagree with the comments made about bars, troughs, baffling and so. Perhaps the best way to view these pits are as landlocked rivers when the wind is blowing strong. The wind driving the flow direction and orbitals, the bars, etc acting as obstacles in the river channel. Throwing that flow in several directions at once. If you can work out where the lee of the flow is at any given time for an obstacle, it will deposit debris there, including natural food and light bait that has been introduced.

Yes under the right wind conditions. How to explain it? In light winds it's likely you'd only have one or two orbital at or just under the the surface but on top of each other, these would be quite small. The rule of thumb of orbitals is they are the size in circumference to the size of each round top wave you see coming across the water. In very strong winds you get big surface orbitals with decreasing orbitals as the depth descends. As shown in the drawing Fig 1. A lesser wind and the size and number would be somewhere in between the two sizes. There will be a calculation somewhere of the orbital spin speed to corresponding wind speeds. Sorry I don't know it, or have it any of the books I have. You should also have to take into consideration the smaller the deeper orbitals are, the less they rotate through the dissipation of energy. However, on a strong wind I do think they (smaller orbitals) would still have enough energy to move stuff as seen on the video. If you can tell me what wind strength, roughly, there was on the day when it was shot, how deep the water was and how far from the bank it was shot. I may be able to give an explanation why the flow was so strong.

Thank for the link Budgie interesting! It could be down to one of three factors, and from the vid I can't really tell. Factor 1 heating of the water and convection courents. This happens in still periods on shallow waters. Again it's driven in a clockwise motion. Factor 2 Wind driven orbitals. Factor 3 and/or a cobination of both. Here are some drawings to explain what wind driven orbitals are Wave_generated_Orbitals.doc PS the top circle is missing off Fig 2 Don't know why probably in the either somewhere

Budgie had a search, but I can't find the vid. Anybody want to post a link to it who knows where it is? Regarding undertow was it undetow? Water going the opposite way to the wind blowing on the back swash . And if it was, how far out was the footage shot? Or was it orbital drag. Orbital drag can touch the bottom of shallow waters if its a good blow. As all orbitals spin clockwise and in deep water (15+ft) stack up on top of each other to a depth of around 10ft. This is the reason I disagree with Den's statement of mixing on deep waters during the period I said. In shallow waters several orbitals on a good blow would drag along the bottom. This dragging process could give the appearance of undertow because of the clockwise spinning process. It could also be quite powerful if several of the larger ones are dragging along the bottom I suppose.

Den I think you missed what I was saying about thermoclines I did not say they happend on pits as I know they don't. They happen on deep waters. As for good blows on resers mixing the water up, I have to disagree with you. I live in reser country and have fished them most of my life. And yes they stratify during the period I stated.

Andrew undertow is created by the wind/wave orbitals dragging on the line. The swash back from the breaking waves rarely ever extend out more than 20 yards. On the deeper mere it's what creates the shelves along with erosion through wave action and an increase in water height. Most of the my fishing is done at 60-90 yds on the the meres on known patrol routes. At that distance it the undertow has gone. On the pits because of their bed topography, it disrupts it and I wouldn't give it to much consideration.

Man this thread got very interesting! It's one of the best discussions (despite the hiccup a few pages back) I've ever read on the internet. Where to start to reply? I'll start with this, there are in my view clear differences between meres and gravel pits and the way fish react in them. The mere's are natural lakes created though the ice age and in the main soup bowl shaped. They do however come in two distinct types - Shallow, down to 15 ft deep. Deep down to 50 ft. The deeper ones stratify with what known as the thermocline. This is an important point on this type of mere. Without going any deeper into the above, this link will give you a further understanding of the meres http://www.fishingmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/1572 Sand/gravel pits in my area tend to be like egg boxes totally up and down with flat areas that can be up to 100 metres squire. They tend to be shallower than the deep mere, with areas that may get down to 20 - 25ft deep. In these type of pits, as you probably know, they are usually quite weedy. Perhaps what you don't know is that most species of weed will only grow up from a maximum depth of 10 ft. I say most, and that includes all the native species, because due to the aquarist trade and the importation of weeds from all over the world (now stopped) many have unfortunately escaped from the garden ponds into the wider environment. So there are those that can get down a lot further and if your water happens to have this vermin, it could weed it totally. It has already been said bream don't like weed. I don't fully agree with that, but setting it aside, I'd say look for water 12+ft deep for the clear areas and bait and fish them them. Wind on both pits and meres There is no doubt in my mind this is the biggest factor in catching bream and with ever increase in mph, I get an equivalent increase in confidence that I'll catch. Give me SW strong to gale force wind, overcast and threatening rain, and it's my dream conditions. However, you need to be fishing into the teeth of it full on. On the meres, and the deeper ones in particularly, fishing into any wind is critical. And the reason why is it tilts the thermocline. Stratification only happens from late spring to early autumn and not during the winter. Fishing on the windward bank or as close as you can get to it, allows you to fish in the warm well oxygenated water. Yes wind adds oxygen to the water, the stronger it is, the more oxygen it adds through the wave action it creates An increase in oxygen, and particularly after a still period, stimulates fish to feed. Easily checkable with tanked fish, increase the air flow without the fish seeing you do it and watch them start to actively start looking for food. Conversely, on the leeward bank the water from the deep can be brought up, that water is cold with very little oxygen in it. Wind also brings to the windward bank lots of natural food, most invertebrates that live in the water column are very poor swimmers and get carried along in the wave orbitals (see link article 2 for an explanation of orbitals) towards the windward bank. So to concluded where I started, on the meres the fish move about far more than they do on pits because the topography allows them to do this. Whereas on pits the man-made topography can work against them, forcing them to reside in certain area

There in a nut shell is the answer! Some years before, probably 5, really can't remember, another mere of 45 acres , was doing fish just under the official record weight by about 1lb. The anglers that were fish it seriously and having the odd few fish out of it, speculated as to how many bream were actually in the mere. The only other fish that were known to be in it were tench, perch, 12 carp and a few very thin pike. We know there was 12 carp, because Bob Henderson and his mates put them in from the Isle Lake in 1968. Bob told me they put 12 in this mere and 6 in every other mere on the Cheshire Shropshire boarder anglers had access to. The 12 carp were never fished for by carp anglers at that time. So no HNV bait was going in! To try and find out just how many were in, one of the anglers had access to fish marker dye. So he and his mate marked all the fish they caught with a spot of this dye left-hand side middle of the flank. In total they marked 10 fish between 8lb 8oz and 11lb 12oz. The marked fish time and time again came out in the catches that were made, and three fish was a very good catch indeed in anyone session. The norm was one fish per month if you were lucky. By a Heath Robinson formula we arrived at the figure of between 25 - 30 fish in the mere. I subsequently (17 years later) ran the same information through a population density statistical programme whilst at University doing a degree in Environmental Studies and Ecology. That programme gave a figure of 42 fish. This mere was as Tinca has said about Cop mere, extremely rich in aquatic food. With such abundant food supply and a low stock density of all fish in 45 acres of mere, is in my mind, the reason it produces these out-sized fish. Many of the other meres in the same glacial fault that created it, were only producing fish of 7-9 lb range. They also didn't have the abundant food supply this one did. To illustrate this belief further, in the early to mid 90s roach got in the mere and exploded, within two years these bream went from the colossus they were at that time, to razor blades of very poor condition. I actually caught one of the marked fish and it weighed 6lb 5oz

Not seen Bob for quite a few years Budgie. I'm not even sure he's still alive, and I don't mean that disrespectfully, Bob had a long-term potentially terminal illness through the job he done all his working life. So I really don't know if he's still with us. As for his indicators, I know Warren Gaunt asked a similar question some time ago but couldn't find anywhere that stocked them. I think Wol got some off someone else who had a pair. I know someone who might know though. I'll have to find his tel No and phone him. But not tonight as he's likely to be in the pub if he's still like he was last time I saw him.

Not got any of Bob's but I'm quite sure they were glass arms with a 5 mm dia

At the point I made that comment that's where the discussion was at. My comments were and are a statement of historical fact, as can be confirmed by any of the following (G, Marsden, E. Bibby J. Charlesworth, D. Sharp, R (Bob) Henderson, T. Knight, J. Williams, W. Moores W, Gollins, T, Bolton Unfortunately the Late R Harker is unable to confirm this. and many others who have purchased them off me) if asked. Yes it has been interesting and informative, if somewhat degenerating over the last few pages, but we now know where its coming from

So you're a urine extractor then? Sound more like a banker to me.... 5 ft drop needed my arse! Let see the photos so we can all have a laugh

Arf just the man!.............only joking Thanks for technical help there. I've not messed about with, and messed is the operative word here. with electronics systems for bite indicators for many years. When I did and I got stuck, I'd deffer the problem to mate who was and still is an electronics engineer. Can I take it that you are also a electronics engineer?