Old Man of the Sea

Apologies for not responding to your question earlier. Briefly, as I don’t have a lot of time to go into this at the moment (we have guests, and SWMBO is giving me the evil eye), I would like to point out that pair trawling is not a new thing – bottom pair trawling for cod has been going on in the North Sea for a very long time. I was on a pair trawler myself, 35 years ago. If what you say is true, and pair trawling is ten times more effective than single trawling, trawlermen would know it better than anybody. The gear isn’t that much more expensive than two rigs of single gear, and the job isn’t that difficult to do. If each trawler could increase his catch by five times, being half of a pair team, why don’t they ALL do it? Which businessman would not want to increase his gross earnings fivefold, with less expense? Yes, if it was that good, everyone would be doing it. But they are NOT. I think you will find that the proportion of pair trawlers to single trawlers in the North Sea has actually reduced over the last twenty years, not increased. For example, Grimsby’s substantial fleet of pair trawlers is no more. Only two single trawlers still remain in that port. I’ll get back to your other questions sometime tomorrow… bear with me…

Some information required, please! I have read in various angling publications that, in the United Kingdom, sea angling generates more money than commercial fishing does. This sounds convincing and logical. In fact, I have used this comparison in several discussions myself in the belief it was true. Then suddenly it occurred to me that I had not seen the actual figures to support this theory; nor how they were made up; and what factors were taken into consideration. As I am a man who does not like to quote data that I do not have at least a reasonable understanding of, I would like to verify the accuracy of the above allegation. I therefore ask for your help. Does anybody know where this information originated from, the actual figures involved; the factors which were taken into consideration in the make up of these figures of comparison; and/or have any other information pertaining to this issue? I would appreciate your input. With thanks… Over to you!

Hi Nick, Apologies for taking so long to get back to you. I joined this forum for two reasons. Firstly, out of interest, and as something to do with my spare time now I have retired. What I did not anticipate is that She Who Must Be Obeyed had other plans for my retirement! Such plans as visiting relatives and friends, looking after the grandkids, redecorating the house, and of course the garden must be tidied up before the cold weather sets in. And then of course, there are the dreaded shopping expeditions! I had planned on writing a book about a lifetime at sea, combining the history of the North Sea and the stories of the people who made a living from her but, as I said earlier, SWMBO has other plans for me. None of them involve me sitting in front of the computer and looking as if I am enjoying myself! I’m now wondering whether I should start looking for another job at sea again! But I digress. Secondly, I think I can give unbiased information to some of the forum members, who quite clearly have opinions formed by hearsay and what the media wants them to know. I say ‘unbiased’ as I no longer have any financial interest in commercial fishing, and the only time I go to sea now is for pleasure. However, I am, and always have been, interested in all things to do with the sea and still would like to maintain this interest, with a constant update of accurate information. Getting back to your posting: Most people get the same message as you do from the commercial sector. The commercial sector knows exactly what state their industry is in, but because they have been treated very badly over the years by one lying scumbag politician after another, ever since the biggest one of them all took us into the Common Market (refer Simon Everett posting), they have learned from past experience that no interference at all is preferable to so-called ‘help’ from a politician with ulterior motives. With the ever-increasing pressure in the press from the angling sector, they are starting to look upon anglers in the same way as anglers look upon the ‘tree-huggers’ (as they are known, in this forum). Like you, I believe ‘that there is room for all parties firmly committed to a sustainable use of the marine resources around this island, and world wide’. You have said you look forward to my suggestions. Unfortunately, I have no definite proposals, but I believe progress can be made with representative bodies of both the angling and commercial sectors, trying to find common ground and working together to protect the much-depleted but valuable fish stocks. For example, just off the top of my head, there is currently a ban on sandeel fishing in the North Sea. But what good is it going to serve if, as soon as the sandeel stock shows any sign of recovery, the EU allows the slaughter to recommence. If representative angling bodies set up a lobby to maintain the sandeel ban for a period of at least five years, preferably ten, (or, better still, forever!) and then asked the UK commercial sector for their support in this endeavour, that might help create a fence-mending process. It is also feasible you might get the RSPB in on the act. That, my friend, would be a great step forward in a relationship that eventually, out of necessity, will have to be formed. There is a worldwide demand for fish as a healthy food source. Unfortunately, in the UK, due to government intervention forty-odd years ago, the primary method of catching this food has become trawling, rather than the more environmentally-friendly traditional fishing methods. Countries like Iceland and Norway, many years ago, moved to a less-destructive method of obtaining this food. But then again it appears that, unlike us, they have governments who are interested in the welfare and well-being of their countries and their people - and a great respect for their seas and its harvest! As an ex-commercial fisherman, I do accept that trawling has done a lot of damage to the seabed. However, despite what Big Cod has to say, trawling is a method of fishing that is on the decline. I tried to factually point out how many trawlers are actually still working in our local area, but Big Cod seemed to take offence at this. I realize he is very passionate about this subject, but he is not very factual and greatly exaggerates the truth to get his point across. Also, when he gets excited, his postings are even more difficult to read and understand. If English is his second language, I apologise for saying this. However, whether or not he is English, I humbly suggest that it might be helpful to him to attend a computer course for word-processing software. In the meantime, perhaps someone could show him where the full-stop is located on his keyboard. The fact is the damage to fish stocks and the seabed has already been done. However, on the positive side, if you are anti-trawling: 1. Trawling is on the decline. There has already been a vast reduction in the number of trawlers, and now there is talk of another decommissioning scheme, which would take more vessels out of the industry. 2. Many trawlers are only allowed to fish fifteen days a month. There is no fiddling on this, because the trawlers are tagged in the same way that criminals are tagged. So, someone sat in an office in London knows exactly where every UK trawler is at all times. 3. DEFRA and the Royal Navy are starting to show fishermen that they have teeth. Every now and again they bite the wrong man for the wrong reasons, and the rules and regulations are so complicated that DEFRA and the Navy have trouble interpreting them themselves. Unfortunately, the big problem is that they growl at and bite the British commercial fishermen, yet wag their tails at, and lick the balls of, our European partners’ fishing fleets. Until we have a level playing field things will never be right. 4. The biggest expense in trawling is the fuel cost. In the last twelve months fuel costs have more than doubled and it is doubtful they will ever come down again. The British government is very unlikely to help the fishermen with fuel subsidies, as the other EU governments will eventually do. 5. As I have already mentioned, there is a North Sea sandeel ban. The remaining sandeels will provide much-needed food for our fish stocks. Also, the massive by-catch of juvenile and mature white fish will not be taken. 6. It seems that here on the Yorkshire Coast there are many more herrings this season than there have been for many years. These herrings and their spawn again will provide much-needed food for the remaining fish stocks. 7. Oil prices are high, and oil work on the North Sea is ‘on the up’. Many trawlers are working for the oil companies as guard vessels. This is lucrative work for them, as there is little wear and tear on the boats and no wear and tear on the fishing gear. Engines are not running under load all the time, so fuel bills are a fraction of what they would be if they were fishing. 8. The government has issued a lot of licences for oil exploration in the North Sea and more and more trawlers are going to be needed for guard jobs. If you believe that trawling is doing all the damage, then all this must be good news for you. Well, my evening and much of tomorrow has been mapped out for me, so I must now abandon my keyboard… Over to you!

quote: Originally posted by @AUTUMN@: Just out of interest do you know if any of the big scottish pair teams are working the NE grounds whilst the herring is currently spawning? [/QB] Briefly, before heading off sightseeing (yawn): I haven't heard any rumours about Scottish pair trawlers working south, but the Scottish pair trawlers will be monitoring the landings of the British pair teams. I don't know how they do it, I just know they do it. So when the British pair teams start doing very well, the Scots won't be far away. Unless, of course, they're doing better on their home grounds. Over to you.

It seems that the trawling sector of British commercial fishing is the main problem with most people on this forum thread. I gather, from Big Cod’s comments, that there is no problem with potting, long-lining, rope seine netting, light duty fine ground trawling for flats and prawns etc. The problem seems to be in fishing gear that damages the sea bed and destroys the environment, so it would be interesting to find out the present extent of the damage actually being done. So, what is the level of heavy duty trawling effort around the country at the moment? I can only speak of the east coast, from Grimsby to, say, Hartlepool. Grimsby has two trawlers, one of which is on guard duty for the oil companies. I don’t know what the other one is doing. Hull, as far as I am aware, does not have any inshore trawlers. Bridlington has no trawlers at all - they have all converted to potting. Scarborough has five trawlers, consisting of one pair team and three singles – at least one of which is on guard jobs. Whitby has ten trawlers, two of which fish offside for prawns most of the year, in places like the Outer Silver Pit. That is, when the navy is not escorting them into Grimsby under armed guard and then not giving them a good reason why! Two others work mostly in the Norwegian sector, when they are not on guard duty. And the remaining six vessels are either single or pair trawling, with the odd guard job thrown in. Hartlepool has three trawlers, none of which are rigged for heavy duty trawling. There are another twelve small boats that fish fine ground for prawns. The guard jobs have been financially very good for the trawlers. They don’t use much fuel or damage any fishing gear. These jobs have taken a lot of the pressure off fishing this summer. But, of course, when the guard jobs dry up, they will be back fishing again. Sometimes establishing the extent of a particular problem helps us to understand it more. Perhaps the forum members around the country can add their views as to what is happening on their local scenes. Is it really heavy duty trawling that is doing the main amount of damage? This, of course, is to do with cod stocks. I have no first hand experience of the bass fishing industry – the extent of my knowledge is what I have been reading in the press and on this forum. Simon Everett had a very good posting – your views, Simon, are the same as mine on Europe, and the parallels between the demise of the farming and fishing industries in this country. Many of we older fishermen did not hold Ted Heath in very high esteem, and we all say things would be different today if Enoch Powell had been Prime Minister at that particular time. There would be no UK in the Common Market/EU, and we might still be able to hold our heads up with pride, and call this country ‘GREAT’ Britain. I am not going to get much time to join in the debate for at least a week – relatives arriving and I have to do my duty. Still, maybe I’ll be able to escape and get down to the harbour and bend a yarn on with some of my old shipmates. Over to you.

Thanks for the welcome, lads. Just briefly: you've given me a couple of things to think about - 1. The perceived philosophy of commercial fishermen (GREED, as some have called it) 2. The reason why trawlers replaced traditional fishing in the first places. 3. @Autumn@, I hope you're wrong, and that anglers and fishermen can get together and make a difference. Goodnight, lads.

Oops! I didn't realise I was coming in shortly after a party political broadcast. Sorry!

Greetings, chaps! I’ve been reading this forum for a few months and I’ve been enjoying your comments and trying to work out what sort of people you might be, and trying to put an accent to your words. I’ve nearly joined the forum on several occasions in the past, but had second thoughts. However, on this present issue, I think some good healthy debate may be productive, and will hopefully lead to a better understanding of a subject that it seems we all feel passionately about. I'm sorry that this has come a bit late in the thread, but it has taken me a while to get registered on the forum. I look forward to some lively debates to liven up my retirement years – at least, whenever the grandkids allow me access to the computer. Forgive me if I am wrong, but it appears you know little about the history of the North Sea, Ian. Forty years ago the sea was teeming with an abundance of fish. Herrings, cod, haddocks, sprats, sandeels and every other fish we have today - with the possible exception of bass, which is a modern day phenomenon. The British government was giving out massive amounts of money in the form of 45% grant and 45% loan to anyone who could come up with 10% of the value of a brand-new inshore trawler. This was one of the pivotal points in the North Sea's history of inshore trawling and created many problems for the future. It rapidly enlarged whole fishing communities along the east coast of England and Scotland, which would otherwise not have evolved at such a rate. On the Yorkshire Coast, Bridlington and Scarborough were probably the most affected areas. Strangely enough, Whitby - which was very isolated in those days - was probably the least affected, because it was already controlled by a few small, but powerful, well-established fishing families. In those days, fishermen were very lucky if they earned 35 pence a stone for cod. So a lot of fish had to be caught for them to earn a living. The North Sea, as far as Hull and Grimsby were concerned, was a place for anchor seiners and North Sea trawlers. They were mainly engaged in what was known as 'priming' - catching the more valuable flatfish. The Granton-type trawl nets the North Sea trawlers were using at the time, which worked well in Iceland, were not nearly as effective in the North Sea as the Boris-type box trawls that the inshore boats were using. Hence the assumption of the trawler owners at Hull and Grimsby, who then spent a lot of money building 'bigger and faster trawlers designed to go to Iceland', which in hindsight could have been unnecessary - although it is probably just as well that they did. You have got to bear in mind that the decisions of the Hull and Grimsby trawler firms were made by men in suits, who sat in plush boardrooms, and the only real contact they had with weather, sea and fishing conditions was if they listened to the shipping forecasts. Whereas the inshore trawlermen had hands-on experience and realised that a 6-inch adjustment to their nets could mean the difference between a good wage at the end of the week. Or not. You imply that the North Sea was fished out forty years ago. There isn't a commercial fisherman - or an angler with any sense at all – who wouldn't swap the North Sea stocks of forty years ago with the North Sea stocks of today. There are some members of this forum who appear to out-and-out condemn British commercial fishermen, probably through the bad publicity they have received. There are other members who are more moderate, and try to understand. The history of commercial fishing goes back hundreds of years, and it has been interfered with constantly by successive governments. The latest thing they are trying to do is to increase pressure on commercial fishing to the extent that everyone gives up, which in many of your eyes may be a good thing. But on the other hand, they have opened schools to train young people to be commercial fishermen, with a view to keeping the industry alive. Are you able to explain this political dichotomy to me? You write: Trust me you have got a shock coming as politicians realise the fish are worth far more left in the sea. Do you really believe politicians are interested in anyone other than themselves? On a less cynical and more positive note, Stan4Massey, may I congratulate you on your conclusion: ‘The seas recources are vast but not infinite, I would think that all who are interested in a sustainable resource be it for sporting potential or commercial gain should downstep the aggro and try and work together.’ I wholeheartedly agree with this. Incidentally, having just read the sandeel article that @Autumn@ provided a link to, I see Whitby's John Brennan also advocates the idea of 'united we stand, divided we fall' - maybe we should take a little notice of such sensible sentiments. It was well worth reading. I fished with both John's grandfather, John Newby, and his uncle, Les Burton, out of Bridlington forty years ago. Those were the days! One haul with the trawl, 1753 stone of cod, sold for £480 - approximately 27 pence per stone. Having said that, please, everyone, don't get on your high horses about commercial fishermen taking all that fish in one day - I can also remember when anglers on Bridlington charter boats were collectively catching more than that each fine day throughout the summer months. And similar amounts - if not more - must have been caught by anglers on Whitby charter boats. Over to you!