Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest Chris Shaw

Two hook rigs and ethics.

Recommended Posts

Guest Chris Shaw
Originally posted by Paul Williams:

Chris,

We are talking about two hook rigs and bream fishing.....a style that uses mass prebaiting.....usually of small particle type baits....It was Terry Lampards article hat sparked the debate not boilies pastes and carp fishing......i jumped to it's defence because i use the methods and have done for a long time.....so you see i don't have to ask anyone either....i use the rigs and i know what they do and don't do!!!!!!!!!!!

 

In this thread which I started I am talking about two hook rigs in general and wether they are ethical or not and there use in carp fishing.

 

------------------

Chris Shaw

 

They played on while the reel handles spun in unison.

 

[This message has been edited by Chris Shaw (edited 10 June 2001).]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Chris Shaw
Originally posted by Paul Williams:

I think i had better clarify "fixed"....the rig is a self hooking rig so the hook lenghts are "fixed" enough to pull the hook home....but they slide off the mainline if broken off and the fish hooks up........this is the idea behind safe self hooking rigs.

O NO....now the anti self hooking brigade will be on my case eek.gifwink.gif

 

Paul

 

 

Why is it that because people are discussing a method that you use do you keep saying that people are having a pop or are on your case?

 

It seems that you are jumpimg to this methods defence for some strange reason. I have already said that I have no problems with it, nor do I have any problems with self hooking rigs.

 

 

------------------

Chris Shaw

 

They played on while the reel handles spun in unison.

 

[This message has been edited by Chris Shaw (edited 10 June 2001).]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paul Williams

Chris,

You didn't notice the smilies then!!

in answer to to your question, if you aint got a problem with it why mention it....go back and read the relevant threads......you ask is it ethical..yes i call that having a pop!!!!

I'll defend my right to fish as i want....so long as i do not harm anyone else and i am fishing legally then yes it is ethical!!! and again i say i use it and know it's limitations.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest trent.barbeler

Chris,

 

By now, from my comments on the other thread concerning this issue, my views on this type of rig are known to all interested parties.

 

For me, my view is not based on any moral or ethical stance but from first hand experience of what these types of rig are capable of.

 

All fishing rigs used by anglers should in my opinion be constructed in such a manner to make them as safe as is possible for the species of fish the angler is seeking to catch.

 

Of course, those who advocate the safety of these two hook type rigs can quite rightly quote many examples of other types of rig used by a wide variety of angling disciplines in defence of their own angling practices.

 

Some of these comparisons hold water whilst some definitely do not.

 

Terry Lampard and the AT in particular were extremely naive in the publication of such a rig. Why? Well, it is all very well giving a vastly experienced angler an insight of a "known" anglers methods used when fishing on extremely hard venues but what about the hundreds of thousands of anglers some, mostly junior anglers, wanting to use the same type of rig on their own waters.

 

These anglers will be fishing waters heaving with bream and very easy to catch on single hook methods.

 

Can you imagine these types of rigs used on these types of venue up and down the country?

Further still, can you imagine the possible damage these rigs can cause in the hands of inexperienced, especially junior anglers?

 

Irrespective of what Terry or AT thinks, these rigs WILL be copied by such anglers on a wide variety of venues where their use are definitely not needed to catch the bream or roach within them.

 

Can you see what I mean? Anglers of the quality of Terry Lampard and the hard venues they fish are in a tiny minority. The audience of the AT are not. Do any of us seriously want to see such rigs being used by junior anglers on farm ponds up and down the country? As I say, the AT is extremely naive if they assume that anglers especially junior anglers will not copy rigs used by "named" anglers for themselves.

 

Ethics and morals within angling can cover an endless spectrum of opinion. The deeper one looks, the more complex the debate can become. In most cases, such debates are pointless because angling by its very nature is made up of so many different techniques and personal requirements.

 

However, whilst I embrace the needs and requirements of all anglers, there comes a point when I will excercise my right to give an opinion on any subject within angling that gives me cause for concern.

 

These two traced, two hook rigs DO give me cause for concern because as far as I am concerned their type are not safe.

 

Also, I find it hard to understand why such rigs are needed to catch wary bream. Surely if these big bream are capable of understanding which bait has the hook in it, it becomes irrelevant how many hooks are in use because this ideology means that the fish will avoid ALL baited hooks.

 

Quite frankly, from a fish catching point of view, I just cant see how two baited hooks are superior to one when the angler is trying to outwit what is undoubtedly a very, very hard fish to catch anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Vagabond

Absolutely right, Trent Barbeller - that was why I was asking Paul for actual details of the safe rig he uses. If juniors and others want to copy a two-hook rig, we are unlikely to be able to dissuade them. What we CAN do is give them a safe rig design to copy.

 

Eventually I would hope they will come to realise that two-hook rigs are not the be-all and end-all of catching.

 

------------------

Vagabond

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Alan Pearce

Lee raises a very good point here about exposing less experienced anglers to rigs and tactics with potential hazards. Whilst it may be legal in some regions, subject to bye-laws with two hooks per rod it is important that anglers are made aware of the safety aspects to the fish.

 

There is no doubt the more baits presented the more chances of catching assuming the fish are in front of the angler, and feeding. An angler fishing four rods with two hook rigs therefore has X7 more opportunities than an angler with one rod and one hook.

 

Personally with the exception of fly and sea fishing I have never fished with more than one hook per rod due to fear of the second hook becoming entangled when playing a fish to the net. A couple of seasons ago an angler fishing one of my tench waters lost a huge fish on a two hook rig, when the top hook link became entangled with the nets mesh as he drew the fish in for landing. Despite my attempts to assist by cutting the spare hook link free the tench, probably a double, made good its escape.

 

Someone once suggested that it was the number of hooks being fished with that should be licenced and not the rods, what do you think.

 

Personally I'm happiest with one hook per rod on the grounds of safety.

 

Alan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paul Williams

I asked before on the other thread but i will ask again....what do you find so wrong with Terrys rig......then i can say if i agree or not!! but to just go on condeming without any explanation smacks a little of holier than thou to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest trent.barbeler

Paul,

Further to your request, and as I am one of those openly opposed to these type of rigs, please bear with me whilst I explain the obvious dangers arising from using the rig pictured in this weeks AT.

 

There are two hooklinks, one of 10lb test with the other at 6lb test attatched to the mainline via a swivel per link. Both of these are slid over a 20inch piece of silicone rubber and are trapped in situ via beads and smaller pieces of silicone rubber.

 

At the end of the mainline a 2oz lead is tied on.

 

Here then, are the dangerous situations that DO arise when employing this type of rig.

 

Let us assume that a bream has taken the bait nearest the lead and the contest between the angler and fish begins.

 

As the fish swims away from the angler the top hooklength should in theory be up the line far enough away so as not to cause any problem. Dead wrong. Even if the second hooklength did stay in place, one would have to be fishing in totally weed free venues for this to become a reality. In any case, very often during the fight, bream will roll over the line directly in line with their own body. How many times have we all felt the mainline rub over a dorsal, pelvic, pectoral and tail fins during the fight? All of us thats for sure. Obviously, this will bring the second hooklength within reach of the fishes body and fins.

 

The reality of course is that during the ensuing fight the top hooklength will at some stage come into contact with weed that will result in the top hooklength being drawn down to rest along side the bottom hooklength above the lead. This is very dangerous indeed. Now the top hooklength has access to the hooked fishes face and in particular, the fishes eyes.

 

Going back to the rig once again, if the fish takes the bait attatched to the top hooklength first, obviously during the fight the top hooklength will slide down the mainline to rest with the one below causing exactly the same problems as already described.

 

What just are these problems Paul?

 

Well, I have seen first hand some very experienced bream anglers using this sort of rig and I have witnessed bream hooked with the flying second hook in the tail, in the wrist of the tail, in the dorsal fin, in the pectoral fin and most dangerously of all, in the fishes eye socket and in the eye itself.

 

This situation arises sometimes from just playing the fish. What about the situation when a breakage in the mainline occurs?

 

Sometimes, unavoidably, the mainline gets snagged in weed or sunken branches well above the rig itself. When this happens, the hooklengths cannot pass over the snagged line above or pass over the tied on lead below. In this situation, one hooklength on this sort of rig would be bad enough but with two?

 

This sort of rig IS dangerous. As I have stated, I have seen the damage caused to some fish caught by others myself. Added to which, ALL those bream anglers I have known to have used such rigs in the past NEVER use them now in pursuit of big bream.

 

Need I really say more?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Paul Williams

Lee,

Thanks for the reply!

Now whilst i agree to what you say in theory...in practice it doesn't happen, this is what i was trying to impress about actually being a user of the rig rather than just questioning the ethics of it.

I use the method when i feel the time is right(for roach bream and tench) and i have NEVER foul hooked a fish in the eye whilst using it....perhaps this is due to my hooklinks being only 3" long on the rig i use.....whatever bait the fish takes the other never can tighten so there is no second hook penetration because the tight line is always on the other link.

I have actually foulhooked more barbel than i have bream whilst using hair rigged baits.......another can of worms to open? because if it happens to me it must happen to others.......however i wouldn't describe that method as dangerous or question the ethics of it!!

At the end of the day we stick hooks into fish, it is inevitable that occassionaly the hooks end up where we don't want them.....however we fish....people who can't accept that should imo ask themselves if they should really go fishing at all.

Do you honestly believe that i and many others would use these rigs if they caused freqent damage to fish?

I have also seen many bream anglers move away from two hook rigs but that one was a totaly different one.......a sort of twin running rig.....i never used it, i tied one up once and felt so uncomfortable with it i cut it off.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Alan Pearce
Originally posted by Paul Williams:

I asked before on the other thread but i will ask again....what do you find so wrong with Terrys rig......then i can say if i agree or not!! but to just go on condeming without any explanation smacks a little of holier than thou to me.

 

Paul, I have just looked at Terry's two hook rig as illustrated in Angling Times June 6 page 6. I think this rig is far from safe should a break in the mainline occur. Assuming a hooked fish could pull the tubing off the link with the lead it would still be trailing some twenty inches of rig tube around plus the second hook link. This is not the worst rig I have seen but would not class it as safe. Silicone tube over rig tube to form a stop does not come apart with ease especially when slack as in a crack off. Try it yourself, drag it around over rough ground with one of the hooks pricked in your finger. The lead will take some moving to dislodge from the rig, the there is all the rest of the rig to contend with. For a semi fixed rig to be safe it must all fall apart if a break in the main line occurs, leaving the fish with JUST the hook and link it is attached to contend with.

 

Alan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...