? for Phil H or any other scientist

[Guest lyn]

OK Phil you ask me for scientific facts now I ask you.

 

It has concerned me for some years if all this high protein bait does the fish any long term damage. It is a conversation Ian and I had but he had no answer.

 

Has there or is there any scientific study going on that would/will answer the question.

 

Also my other concern is the use of some essential oils, which clearly state on the bottle 'for external use only'

 

What are your opinions on the above and anyone else's for that matter.

 

I would be really interested if anyone else has concerns over this.

 

lyn

[Guest Gray-Catchpole]

hi lyn

after all the discutions we have had over "that bait" and its oil contents i would love to see some real facts.

 

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Website: http://catchpole.cjb.net

 

Email:

[Guest RobStubbs]

Lyn,

High protein baits are generally not that high and don't forget they are only a minor component of a carps total diet. I'm sure someone like Bruno can correct me but the optimum protein content for carp feed is about 35%.

 

AFAIK the only scientific work is relating to Koi (no money for angling research). This has looked at the best feeding regimes with redards diet composition. Koi breeders want to produce the best (biggest ?) fish for the minimum financial outlay.

 

Essential oils are not meant to be 'eaten' in the normal sense hence your bottles at home will state that. They are used in bait in minute amounts and don't forget many are are also used in the food industry where they are obviously deemed safe (for humans).

 

In summary as long as fish don't have a diet solely composed of any one foodstuff in isolation there should be no problem.

 

Rob.

[Guest lyn]

Rob, I see what you are saying but the rapid growth rate of fish ie carp & now barbel is being put down to the amount of high quality/high protein baits that are now so 'available' to them. Surely this is not natural?

 

Has anyone monitored how long koi live being fed these type of foods for prolonged periods?

 

It has already been established that high oil contents can cause liver damage.

 

Is a barbels digestive system etc the same as a carps for instance and therefore will high oil content have the same effect on them?

 

Are we as anglers our own worse enemy???

 

So many questions!

 

If any bait companies are reading this, would you like to add your thoughts??

 

lyn

[Guest RobStubbs]

Lyn,

The increased growth rates are probably due in part to increased bait availability and an increase in bait quality. However there are also enviromental factors; increased fertiliser use and run off, more weed etc. I know someone is researching this as we speak (metaphorically speaking).

 

I'm sure research has been done on Koi life spans and I would imagine it's increased. Other fish no chance - does anyone care, in the world of bait companies etc ? It's all about economics so a bait company is unlikely to plough it's profits into an expensive research project.

 

It hasn't been shown that high oil levels = damage; rather that in a grossly overstocked artificial scenario high oil levels can be detrimental to the welfare of fish.

 

Barbel will never be exposed to the same amount of bait as a heavily fished lake so they will more than likely experience no problems. However look at it scientifically, has there ever been any cases of barbel (or carp) being killed by bait composition ? The answer is almost certainly no. The only problems I'm aware of is in overstocked carp puddles where stocking levels are too high to sustain a healthy population of fish.

 

So are we are own worst enemies, no, rather I like to think we are a fishes best friend.

 

Rob.

[Guest phonebush]

Lyn,

Most "studies" are not scientific in that double blind results are very expensive and complicated for exact conclusions.

Having said that, carp are an amazing species. They have no stomach. The use what they can and excreat the balance. Often as little as 5% of what is injested. In some cases excreations are located in a specific area of water by carp to be eaten again at a later time (thought to be a learned behavior). You must arrive at the outside 2% of the anti equation to stress carp. I mean protein, independent aminos, alkali, acid, rings of actractants etc etc.

Certainly, this subject is the most discussed non-participation element in bait fishing. (I think I just said it is fun to discuss) In reality, we don't have a clue, else someone would be a blipping millionaire.

Phone

I should say, I know little about English carp specifically, only carp as a species. The UK has unique situations which I certainly am not qualified to address. But having said that - "a fat carp is a fat carp" now that's heavy

 

[This message has been edited by phonebush (edited 05 October 2001).]

[Guest phil hackett]

Originally posted by lyn:

OK Phil you ask me for scientific facts now I ask you.

 

It has concerned me for some years if all this high protein bait does the fish any long term damage. It is a conversation Ian and I had but he had no answer.

 

Has there or is there any scientific study going on that would/will answer the question.

 

Also my other concern is the use of some essential oils, which clearly state on the bottle 'for external use only'

 

What are your opinions on the above and anyone else's for that matter.

 

I would be really interested if anyone else has concerns over this.

 

lyn

 

Big question this one Lyn!

 

First what do you mean by high protein bait?

If by this you mean ready-made preserved in the bag boillies. I know of no studies that have been carried out or reported in any of the literature in regards to how safe/unsafe in the long term they may be.

In sort, nobody has carried out such trials/research under accepted scientific protocols.

One area of this type of bait that does trouble me is the preservatives used. There has been much scientific debate around these substances and the possible impact on human health. My view is, if there is some doubt in regards to human health, then don’t feed it to fish either. Cautionary I know, but better to be safe than sorry.

 

The same maxim would apply to essential oils as well I would think. Particularly if it say for external use only! However, I don’t know which essential oil(s) you are referring to in your post?

 

On incident I did come across many years ago whilst attending a short course designed for anglers by Dr Chris Glodspink at Manchester Metro University. Was a case of a Koi Carp that had died for no apparent reason. The fish was owned by a friend (and keen Koi Carp breeder) of a fellow student on the course. As we were at the stage of internal anatomy of fish, Chris autopsied the fish. To his and our horror, that fish had little left of its liver. Chris asked the student to find out what that fish had been feed on from its owner. The guy had exclusively feed all his Kois on processed peas of all things, as he believed them to enhance the colours in the fish.

Chris’s conclusion was that the fish could not fully digest process peas in the quantities it was being given and that possibly the preservatives and colouring enhancers had helped in the liver’s disintegration. Chris also said it was the worst case of liver damage he’d ever seen in the many thousands of fish he’d autopsied.

[Guest RobStubbs]

Phil,

You're right that there has been speculation about preservatives and human health but don't forget they haven't been outlawed - therefore there is insufficient evidence that they are unsafe, or at least contradictory evidence. And also by far the majority of baits are unpreserved nowadays.

 

The essential oils Lyn uses, as I mentioned previously, are not for consumption hence the labelling. I believe they are for aromatherapy or similar. The manufacturers have to cover themselves in case someone fancied drinking a bottle. And again as mentioned before, essential oils are used in the (human) food industry and are deemed to be safe, in the very small amounts used.

 

Rob.

[Guest lyn]

Rob, just to point out, I don't use essential oils in my bait. In the past I was using a bait that contained e/oil ie tea tree.

 

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong on this! Take the Medway barbel for instance. With a large amount of HP baits going in the barbel came out at 16+ Once these baits stopped going in, the same fish 'bottomed out' a few pounds lighter. (It was a while ago so I may have the facts slightly out) My concern is, will it do the fish any harm for their weight to fluctuate like this?

 

I know a fishes weight varies, sometimes dramaticly depending on the time of year ie spawn bound an extra 20% etc I am not refering to this natural weight gain/loss.

 

I hope the above makes sense of what I am asking.

 

lyn

[Guest waterwatching]

Is it not easier to view ourselves in parallel with the fish? History shows us that in the distant past the majority of people where smaller, had shorter lifespans due to dietry problems, ie starvation, while those in the higher parts of whatever society one chooses tended to be bigger, if not in height then certainly width, and were also expected to live in some cases considerably longer. Modern day western man has a lot more food of a higher quality available to him, even in the poorer levels of society, and so is bigger (have a look at the sizes in an american clothing cataloge if you`re not sure about this)and lives considerably longer than our ancestors. Another example would be in the difference in imigrants from the third world. When they arrive they are usually, but not always smaller, than they are after being in our socity for a while. Their children tend to be bigger, taller and wider, again than their peers back home. Sporting records are another example of how the increase in not only the nutritional value but of the quantity of human food has benefited us. Whilst it may be argued that this increase in food intake has brought us different health problems than when we where less affluent I think few of us would care to return to those conditions.

P.s Lyn

As a woman you are better qualified than most of us mere men to talk about the effects of sudden large weight losses on the health, as few men see the need to diet as much as women!!

 

[This message has been edited by waterwatching (edited 07 October 2001).]