Guernsey Consulting on Bag Limits for Anglers

[AlderneyBassman]

Great idea Stoaty, simple but effective.

It's worked in trout fisheries for years as a way of judging how many have been caught, therefore how many have to be re-stocked.

 

Lets face it, most anglers like to tell people what they have caught.

[Toerag]

Steve C - yes. You have a PM.

[Puffin]

Sharkbyte - nice use of the search facility!

OK, interestingly, we have people on here condemning the bag limit proposals yet same people condemn others on here for catching shedloads of fish? What do exactly you want???? No wonder the commercial guys are beating anglers proposals when the anglers don't even know what they want!

 

Everyone knows the flatfish stock situation has got worse, the charterboats and commercials know this. Without any better explanation it's fairly obvious that angling pressure has done the damage. Now many years ago the 2 UK charterboats and local charters doing the trips were co-existing quite happily with the commercial guys, and there was enough fish for all. I think this is called a 'sustainable fishery' . Now we have the situation where

 

QUOTE In 1998, 11 vessels visited Alderney and fished for 177 days, this increased to 20 boats and 356 days in 2004 and for 2006 there are at least 50 charter boats offering trips to Alderney. UNQUOTE

 

It depends whether you believe Guernsey Sea Fisheries figures. Remember these are the same people who made huge and unsubstantiatable claims about black marketeering a few months ago. I can't imagine where they get the idea that there are 50 vessels offering trips to Alderney. Also, offering trips is a lot different to actually doing them. I would guess the figure was less than half that and half that half actually making more than one or two trips a year to Alderney. The presentation of these figures is also misleading in so far as one could take it to mean that in 2004 20 boats fished all year with only nine days off! Divide 356 by 20 gives an average for each of only 17.8 days spent fishing locally. Interesting that there are no figures produced for 2005. is that because anyone of average intelligence could work out how ludicrous their claim is of anglers taking 7 tonnes of turbot?

[chappers]

the report is stating that there were 356 boat days, not 20 boats fishing all year this is made clear in that the first boat came april and no more after oct. As most of us know your average is only an average as of the 20 boats some are there all summer and fishing far more than your 17.8 days whereas some of the 20 boats probably only made one or two trips.

 

I don't know whether the 7000kg is fact or fiction but it is easily an attainable amount, for 356 boat days that is only 19.66kg per boat day or 9.8, 2kg turbot per boat day, as I said it may be pure fiction but is not anywhere near the realms of impossibility, and I'm sure a commercial crew fishing 356 days , rod and line might be able to acheive this.

 

The biggest problem with this whole consultation is that we are "outsiders" fishing in someone elses water, and our one and only bargaining chip is the tourist dollar we bring to the islands. The fact is that even if bag limits are put in place it will still be some of the best fishing in the british isles and people will still want to fish there. The only way to back up our position would be to boycott fishing around the islands and that just isn't going to happen as some charter skippers whole yearly incomes are based around their trips to the islands.

We should be taking part in this consultation as a chance to get some legislation in place with regards to the commercial take and to negotiate the best deals for ourselves, for at the end of the day it could be worse the proposal could be to only let licensed Guernsey boats fish in their waters, what would we all do then, we wouldn't even have the choice.

[Puffin]

the report is stating that there were 356 boat days, not 20 boats fishing all year this is made clear in that the first boat came april and no more after oct. As most of us know your average is only an average as of the 20 boats some are there all summer and fishing far more than your 17.8 days whereas some of the 20 boats probably only made one or two trips.

 

I don't know whether the 7000kg is fact or fiction but it is easily an attainable amount, for 356 boat days that is only 19.66kg per boat day or 9.8, 2kg turbot per boat day, as I said it may be pure fiction but is not anywhere near the realms of impossibility, and I'm sure a commercial crew fishing 356 days , rod and line might be able to acheive this.

 

The biggest problem with this whole consultation is that we are "outsiders" fishing in someone elses water, and our one and only bargaining chip is the tourist dollar we bring to the islands. The fact is that even if bag limits are put in place it will still be some of the best fishing in the british isles and people will still want to fish there. The only way to back up our position would be to boycott fishing around the islands and that just isn't going to happen as some charter skippers whole yearly incomes are based around their trips to the islands.

We should be taking part in this consultation as a chance to get some legislation in place with regards to the commercial take and to negotiate the best deals for ourselves, for at the end of the day it could be worse the proposal could be to only let licensed Guernsey boats fish in their waters, what would we all do then, we wouldn't even have the choice.

 

What I meant was that by quoting the numbers in that way it appears like an attempt to make the numbers seem larger than they are. It Also leads the reader to do the sum 20 boats = 356 days so 50 boats must = 1425 days.

 

Your arithmetic on the turbot catch falls into that trap. Your 19.66 kilos (about 43lb) per day sounds achievable if turbot numbers were consistent throughout the period, which they are not. It is not unusual for parties to catch only one or two between them. Not all boats fish for turbot and those that do don't spend every day that they are in local waters turbot fishing, if they did they wouldn't have time to "threaten" the bass, pollack, bream, cod and ray stocks . In my experience anglers and skippers self-impose a much larger limit than the ridiculous 28cm Minimum Landing Size too, so a fair proportion of turbot caught are returned alive. The same can not be said of the commercials. 7 tonnes taken by anglers? Not a chance.

 

You are right that everyone who has a stake in this matter must make there voice heard. Otherwise it is a lose-lose situation. If there is proper evidence rather than supposition and unsubstantiated allegation that there is a problem with declining stocks then it's fair to say that whatever happens some form of bag limit will have to be accepted but it should be fair and policeable. It should also be matched by an increase in MLS and a restriction on effort for the commercials.

[chappers]

We'll have to agree to differ on the attainability of catching 7 tonnes of turbot but also bear in mind that during the peak spring and Autumn runs boats are catching upwards of 30 fish a day making 43lb of fish seem in significant. I agree that there is no substansiation in the figures given in the consultation but just wanted to point out that before we get on our high horses we need to realise that this is an attainable figure and shouldn't just be shouting off that it's rubbish. The only way to disprove a made up statistic is with fact, you can't just make up a different one.

[Puffin]

We'll have to agree to differ on the attainability of catching 7 tonnes of turbot but also bear in mind that during the peak spring and Autumn runs boats are catching upwards of 30 fish a day making 43lb of fish seem in significant. I agree that there is no substansiation in the figures given in the consultation but just wanted to point out that before we get on our high horses we need to realise that this is an attainable figure and shouldn't just be shouting off that it's rubbish. The only way to disprove a made up statistic is with fact, you can't just make up a different one.

 

 

Sorry Chappers, but I have to disagree with you about turbot catches. Someboats, occasionallycatch more than 30 turbot in a particular day. Those are the exception, not the rule. Of 30 plus fish caught not all are necessarily retained because, as I said in my previous post, most boat anglers don't "tiddler snatch" and return several fish which they could legally take. Of course two lifetime best fish could make 43lbs but thats what they are, the sort of fish you hear of being caught a handful of times in a year. The 43lb figure only holds true if all boats spent every day in local waters fishing for turbot, this is not the case. an average 3 night trip is usually spent likje this: Day1, wrecking Mid-Channel/Hurd Deep, maybe an hour bassing on the way into alderney. Days 2&3 Mixture of flattie bashing/ bassing, or tope/rough ground fishing. Day 4, Flatties or Bass in the morning, wrecking on the way home, or, depending on tides/weather, wrecking then inshore fishing UK side. The keenest flattie bashers are only going to get 3 days out of four. Those who prefer variety might fish for flats on only one or two days, making 43lbs per day an unrealistically low figure for the attainment of 7 tonnes per annum. That is why I say the guernsey sea Fisheries proposals are based on supposition and hearsay, not hard evidence. That is no proper basis for the introduction of restrictions.

 

Had they introduced a catch and retain log scheme for charter vessels five years ago they would have hard figures to work with. It is not too late for them to be convinced to see sense and collect those figures before taking action. Anglers should also IMHO be pushing hard for a meaningful increase in MLS on "pressure" species applied to all.

 

The worst thing anglers can do is do nothing. The second worst thing UK anglers can do is think it won't affect them. If Guernsey gets away with this don't think that Mr Blair and his chums won't look at doing the same.

[Toerag]

Puffin - OK, so surely if the tonnage isn't being caught/retained then there's no problem with sticking to a bag limit?? The whole thing is about the theory that UK anglers are going back home and selling some of all of their fish. OK, not everyone does that, however there are those that do, and this is realistically the only way to stop it.

As Chappers stated, without any better proof to argue the point, there's not much the angling community can do. The anecdotal evidence is there on the charterboat websites and www.alderneyangling.com , and the effort & catch statistics are there from the commercials. Some, none or all the proposals may get through, but the GSF will only pay attention to sensisble responses. There is a lot of blanket NO responses from the anglers, and this is merely proving the point the commercials have made.

Yes, last year was a good year, this year has been well down. However the big things to note are a) the average size has dropped and the effort needed to catch them has gone up. A) has quite possibly occurred due to the forcing out of the large beam trawlers from the 12 mile limit effectively creating a large nursery area which is now starting to produce lots of dinky flatties, and these are the ones being caught now.

[Puffin]

The anecdotal evidence is there on the charterboat websites and www.alderneyangling.com

 

 

Anecdotal evidence does not equal accurate statistics and the anecdotal evidence you point to refers to total numbers caught, not total numbers retained. Ask any angler how they got on and they'll tell you how many they caught in total. Ask any skipper how their trip went and they'll tell you the same. Let's face it, if you were a skipper of a charter vessel, would you talk down your catches?

[FishingGuernsey]

Story from the charter side in today's local press:

 

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/code/shownew...rticleID=001103

 

Andy