Liamsm

Hi All, Very interesting post this, I have skipped through it a little fast as I have just found my way back to the site after a long while and have not been following things. So please excuse if this has already been mentioned. I think that I have taken most of it in though and noted that it has been said about the senses of fish and animals being different than our own. Does anyone think that there is a possibility that these senses include magnetic forces, or detection on metal things?. What brings it to my mind is the fact that I have read in the past about animals and fish using the earths magnetism to navigate in some circumstances. I also watched a program on sharks that suggested that they could home in on a shark cage using a similar ability. …………Liam

Hi Lee, I can’t find anything to disagree with in the part of your post to me. I think that we are mostly in agreement about what should be being done. And! who should be doing it. My view was more a supplement to it all really, in getting every river angler involved, or rather giving the opportunity for it. As for the research that is being done on the effects of signals on our unique environment!. There can not possibly be any conclusion to such research, without speculation, or projection. As the end result, or full consequences of this invasion by the signals can not be seen on any of our rivers yet. As we have both concluded and stated, a natural balance with the signal crayfish in place within our eco system, can not happen without changing it completely. There will be a natural balance one day, as nature dictates it, but by then our rivers will be a lot different than they are now. I am mindful in this discussion that I live on the Kennet which is a lot further along in the progression of the invasion (probably more than anywhere else) than the waters where you are. I have seen the Kennet which is not a big river, change dramatically over the last thirty years and the signals are only one of the problems. Some of the points of views being put forward, from those living in areas where the native crayfish still survive and rivers that are not totally infested yet are things that were thought about and tried many years ago on the Kennet. They have not helped much to date though , but are not being changed. If there is not a change of ideas, I can not see how these other rivers can avoid the same fate. “A two pound chub is easily capable of dealing with a full grown signal crayfish as are many other fish species. Herons and other fish eating birds are fond of them as are otters and mink.” I am completely aware of all this Lee, I was trying to draw attention to the fact that most people overlook that a very large portion of the smaller ones are eaten by fish of all sizes and all species in even greater numbers. Therefore excluding it from the same scenario that we had with pike culling. Most people do not know what an immature crayfish looks like and even tend to exclude them from the equation, when thinking about the problems, or views within a debate. It has to be said that one of the most contributing factors in the survival of the signals on the Kennet, (that is very well fished), must be the introduction of the large amounts of anglers bait that is often used. If this bait was absent, it would have a two fold effect. No extra food for the crayfish to feed on,( does an abundance of food lead to greater propagation in nature?) and no food for the fish, forcing them to feed more on the crayfish. The negative side might be that the Signals may feed more on the fish eggs, if deprived of the anglers bait. How this would all balance out is hard to say. I definitely would not rule out the part that anglers play in the balance of our eco system on a river like the Kennet though, as I would not rule out the effect of the most seemingly insignificant inhabitant of our rivers, or the way that we treat them. ………….Liam [ 18. May 2005, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Liamsm ]

Hi Leon, Much as expected from a limited viewpoint and understanding. The point of a population explosion due to removing the lager crays may sound like a sound argument from past experience and mistakes made with pike, but the considerations are not the same. Such comparisons only result in more false premises, drawn from not considering other factors that may be in play also. Small pike are largely prayed on by bigger pike and not much else. Although large crays feed on the smaller ones, so does every other fish in the river. Size consumed dependant only on size of fish. Not just predator fish either. (small crays are very much like fresh water shrimp etc.) The ones that the fish do not feed on predominantly, are the larger ones. The ones that we all see and catch on our lines and to a large extent in traps. If any trapping is to be done at all, a new design in traps is called for, to get more of the intermediate sized ones also. (Those not fit for eating) A large portion of what is left will fall pray to the fish population anyway. That is as long as there is an up and coming fish population after the crays have gorged themselves on the spawn. ( OK! a little sarcasm, but not that far out ) It is nice that the larger fish are getting bigger for us to catch on them, but what happens to the natural balance of new stock coming through?. I think that it has gone beyond catching them to eat. We should be catching them in large numbers and destroying them on the banks that they are caught on. As the law is at the moment this opportunity is not there, but the other concerns that you have mentioned that may cause a spread of them still is. The law takes away the power for the concerned angler to do anything , but the other concerns that you have expressed will be infringed by those less concerned, that will carry on regardless anyway. We all know that eco systems depend on balance, as is the case with the pike that belong to and are a natural part of our own eco system, but the Signal Cray is not a natural part of our eco system. It was introduced here as a mistake by man and remains a mistake to be put right by man. Natural balance with the crays firmly embedded in it, may well be a different eco system that we now know. I am not convinced that anyone knows for sure what that future naturally balanced eco system will be like either, as comparisons to other systems in the world are not the same. Too many things are being taken for granted with this problem that evolve around what we know. There is not enough consideration being made for what we don’t know and can’t know. When this is done we will stop making comparisons with the behaviour of crays within a totally different environment, or other spices that belong here and start concentrating on the unique effects of the signal crays on our own environment. ……………Liam. [ 15. May 2005, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Liamsm ]

Hi John, Thank you!.I think that you have helped to make my point very well. The kennet is infested with them and the true effects of such an infestation are only just being realised on there. Some longer term effects have probably not even shown up yet. When you do know of a problem on your water it will probably be too late. There is no doubt that they will spread quite easily throughout the south to the same proportion that they have infested the kennet with. The trick is to see the bus coming before it hits you. ...........Liam. P.S. Your quote would have read as it was writen if it had been in full and not half of a sentence of what was said. [ 15. May 2005, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Liamsm ]

Hi Lee, I doubt if there are any white claws left on the Kennet now mate and I think that I would go along with Newt on the fact that they probably don’t have a great deal of chance anywhere else either, unless something drastic is done on the Southern waters where they have already taken over the natural eco system of the rivers. I honestly don't think that anyone that can be bothered enough to want to make a difference, would not know the difference between the white claw and the signals anyway. I have a lot more faith in anglers as a whole, than to think that most of them are not capable of doing ‘their bit’ without a problem. OK! these kind of laws are made for the few numpties that are about, but I still think that it is at the determent of using the many more caring and capable anglers out there, that just might make enough of a difference. The ones that would not bother and are probably the same ones that leave their litter on the bank, would not be part of the equation anyway. Most of the projections of the full effect that the signals are having on our eco system, are coming from past experience of them in a totally different one. I think that in this there are mistakes being made and things being taken for granted that may not apply the same. It is not just a case that these things are having an effect on the native crayfish. They are changing the whole balance of the systems that they taking over. Half of what they are effecting is not even known yet, because of the false premise that they effect each environment in the same way. There are too many people arguing about what should be done, while in the meantime doing nothing. Even a brief halt in their progress may give enough time for those that need to, to see the full picture. It’s a bit like religion!. There is a finger pointing the way to heaven, but everyone is so busy arguing about whose finger it is, that they never get there. It is not hard to see that the laws in effect at the moment are very contradictory and need changing quickly. As it is at the moment, any angler having contact with them is breaking the law no matter what they do with it. Do we go with the law, or use common sense?. ……………Liam P.S. 'Save up for a rainy day' Lee!. On this one mate it has been pouring it down for a long time!. [ 14. May 2005, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Liamsm ]

Hi Leon, I did mail the EA about it quite some time ago and had a brief conversation with someone on the phone also, but they just did not seem that interested. I am afraid that I am too heavily involved with another project at the moment, that will do a lot more good for all angling in general than this. So have not really got the time to put into contacting anyone else about it. These things usually end up with quite a lot of chasing up to get anywhere. I will contact you later in the year about the other project if all goes well, as I will be needing a sea anglers experience on it also. .............Liam

Hi All, My opinion on this for a long time has been that the EA needs to change the law so that every angler that holds a rod license should be able to trap signal crays in their own swim while fishing. This will not be an alternative to the trapping schemes that are in place at the moment, but would give any caring angler that wants to ‘do their bit’ the opportunity to help. The law as it stands at the moment on the signal crays is a bigger stumbling block to their eradication than anything else. I am not sure why the EA are so hard to convince of changes that are so logical. Perhaps it needs a lot more pressure from angling groups to get it done. It seems to me that the EA just does not like change, no matter how sensible. ……………Liam [ 13. May 2005, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Liamsm ]

Hi All, I am well impressed with it, gets my vote. Like has been said a lot of work and thought has obviously gone into it. Having just read it, I can't imagine any angler not being happy with it. ..........Liam

Hi Peter, I look in quite a lot, but it is mostly to learn other aspects of fishing than barbel, so have not really that much to contribute to the wide variety of subjects on this forum. I do like to try to support as many sites as possible though. The action here does not seem to have dropped any more than any other site. ........Liam

Hi Twochay, Many years ago I also invented a couple of bits of tackle, very simple things. I approached a tackle manufacturer to see about getting them produced and they said that they were not interested. Six months later a slightly modified version was on the shop shelves. I think that the best way if you can afford the investment, is to produce these idea's and market them yourself. .........Liam

Thanks pangolin, Sounds like it might operate on the same principal as those self locking floats. Probably never use one myself, but just love to know how everything works. I still can't quite see exactly the principal of it, but I expect that it will come to light when a few more have used it. .......Liam

Hi All, Have I read it correctly in that this is some kind of self striking device?. ..........Liam

Hi Peter, If this guy was spinning I think that he could possibly be within the law. All he has to do is say is that he is spinning for trout. He would need a rod license also though to be legal. Too easy to bend it all, the way it stands at the moment, almost impossible to police properly as well. ………….Liam

Thanks for your resonce to my post chaps. Nothing more to add on your political debate, so will leave it there. Lee, you grow more humble every day, you will end up positivly shy, if you are not carful. (smilies) ........Liam

How can you be in total disagreement with me about such an important issue in angling and still work with me for the general good?. This is the question that every angler has to ask every other angler, before any real progress can be made toward a unified front against the antis. Lee/Peter, Respect you both, but if two talented generals like yourselves can't get behind the same lines in the war, we have no chance. ..........Liam