wyeknot

What a purple patch! Let's hope it continues into next season - 20lb bream and double figure tench eh?? Well done Andrew!

Welcome to the thread Stuart - good posts! Keep 'em coming. I think I may have mentioned this before but I have fished for the last two seasons at Wingham using rubber maggots and caught my fair share of tench but no eels. Not sure if the bream pick up rubber maggots though. Normal bream maybe but SBs, I'm not so sure unless anyone out there knows more??? Steve C.

This thread has got too big!! What a memory Den. Well done! Steve C.

Some thoughts on this:- small bream on hungrier waters do wander. In fact on some waters you can almost set your watch by them as they pass by the same swim at almost the same time every day. Now is this behaviour innate to all bream? Does it apply to the SB? At Wingham we have approximately 40+ SB in 40 acres. So even if they spread themselves out evenly (unlikely, I know) that's only 1 fish per acre. Put them in shoals of say, 8 fish, and the maths will tell you that is one shoal in 8 acres! But Wingham bream have been caught in quite a few different locations as well as being seen in others where they've not been caught. So either they do move all over the lake (in their shoals) or there are resident shoals in quite large areas. I believe that one member has seen "two large shoals of big bream" in the daytime, in shallow water at Wingham. Maybe Steve can expand on this but I got the impression that it was early season (pre-spawning behaviour?). Fish shoal as a means of protection and I see no reason why SB should lose this instinct even if they have reached a size where almost all predators would leave them be. Fish aren't capable of reasoning thought. They are creatures of instinct and habit. so SB will still shoal, possibly in year class groups; they will still wander but will be subject to external stimuli such as weather, bankside activity, sexual behaviour, etc.; they will still have predatory feeding urges if the food source is readily available and all other factors are positive. But, and this is the big BUT, SB appear to react in a different way to these factors than their smaller brethren would. Our problem is identifying which way they react to a given stimulus. I tend to approach my fishing in a simplistic empirical way. If I find a bait/method/swim/etc. that works then I continue to use it. That doesn't mean that I don't think about my fishing because I do but, on say the matter of location, if SB have been caught from a known swim then it's odds on that they can be caught from there again, can't they? So what is the driver to look/try elsewhere? (If it ain't broke, don't fix it.) Hmmm . . . . I could play devils advocate here but I want to hear what all you guys think. Steve C.

Continuing the thread on location, I was wondering about the effect that the undertow would have on the bream. I know that roach like a bit of flow but other fish prefer quieter areas. My feeling is that bream, and especially "SB"s , not being particularly athletic, would much prefer to be out of the main undertow flow. Wingham has a lot of "features" so it wouldn't be too difficult for them to find places where the flow is weak or where a particular feature provides shelter from it. Does this preference go some way to explain why the SB will feed in a certain swim on one day but be missing on another because the wind has changed direction in between? The predominent wind in the UK is SW. Will the areas of weak undertow on days of SW winds produce swims where we are more likely to catch? When the wind changes how quickly will the bream react? Hmmmm . . . .

So why do they roll and bubble when feeding on bait and not when feeding in natural foods and why is this competitive feeding? Competitive feeding seems to me to be "heads down and going for it" activity not rolling at the surface. I have seen bream roll in a swim before I have put any bait in. (Only to have them scarper when I do. Grrr ) My last thought is - What can be more attractive than natural bait? Talk to you later - I have work to do!! Steve C.

I like your thinking John, but as Budgie has said these 'Superbream' seem to behave like a separate sub-species. They swim around in small groups but because the lake is rich in natural food and they aren't part of a large shoal, there isn't any competitive feeding response. I suspect that these bream 'graze-feed'. swimming along and dropping down onto patches of bloodworm, crustaceans, etc. I agree with you that these fish are very cautious. On other waters I have watched 15lb+ bream hang back watching smaller (8+lb) fish feed on spod spill and not make any attempt to feed on the maggot, corn, etc. So I can imagine similar behaviour in the small group of 'superbream'; one or two dipping down to feed then moving on. They have no need to make the most of a large bed of food, especially if the tench and other silver fish are in there. This is speculation, I know, but you have to have a theory to work to until more data is available. Steve C.

Wow!! Richard, You have really opened up a big debate here. There is a plethora of hooks out there in tackle shops that meet the criteria you've mentioned. But, and it is a big but, there are so many different factors that need to be taken into account; size and nature of the bait; float or ledger; strength of the line/rod; presence of snags or open water; the possiblity or bigger fish other than tench being caught; Club rules, i.e barbed or barbless hooks only; etc. etc. The other design feature you didn't specify was the length and shape of the shank; short or long, straight or curved? It really is a "pays your money and take your pick" scene out there. Personally speaking I prefer a straight point when fishing barbed hooks as I feel they are much better at getting that initial 'pricking' effect and penetrate easier than an inturned point. However, if I am using barbless hooks then I use inturned points as the hook hold is better and is more forgiving if you let the line slacken. I like my hooks to be teflon coated. They don't "flash" in bright sunlight and, having spent an unpleasant couple of hours in casualty having one removed from my finger, they seem to penetrate very easily! I also like the eye inturned slightly as I believe they help the hook "turn" and "prick". But personal preference rules here. Having tried a lot of hook designs over the years I can only list the hooks I have in my tackle box that I use and have confidence in when I am fishing for tench of the size you mention. So here goes:- Light hooks - barbed = Tiemco Fly hooks or Kamasan B980 / Barbless = Korum S4 or S3 Medium weight hooks - barbed = Drennan Super Specialist Barbel, Solar X-Wide gape, Fox Series 1 and ESP Big-T Raptor / Barbless = Inturned point versions of Fox Series or Korda hooks. But, if it is allowed then I will simply flatten the barb or any of the barbed hooks listed above leaving a slight "bump" to help keep the hook engaged. Strong hooks - barbed = Kamasan Carp Maxx, Korum S5 / Barbless as above. But, Richard, this is only my opinion based on the experiences I have had and the recommendations of people who I have respect for as anglers. I don't claim any special knowledge in this area. It's a pity you're not a member of the Tenchfishers because this topic has been raised in the members-only forum and I have benefitted from the collection views and experiences of the members that they have shared. (It's the best £20 membership fee I have spent - plug over!!!!) So for what it's worth, stick to hooks you have confidence in until they let you down. Let's hope it's not a record if that happens! Steve C.

I don't think you are explaining things wrongly Budgie, it's just that, when you say "big bream", to many people that means a different size of fish to the ones that I and, quite a few of us, understand this thread to be about. Maybe we should call them "Giant Bream"? I'm not quite comfortable with the term "freak bream" as that suggests that there is something unnatural about them. Fish of the size we're talking about are rare, yes, but not freakish. I think John and Anderoo are probably right about the length of this thread as anyone reading the latest post for the first time has to go back a long way and do a lot of reading to catch up with those of us who have been there from the start. We just have to accept that every now and then someone will post something that has been covered before. But that's not a reason to stop though. So, keep on asking those questions and posing those hypothoses, Budgie, and I, and all the rest of us will keep doing the same and maybe, just maybe we'll all get a little closer to the answers. Steve C.

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. It is giving me a lot to think about. Like Anderoo, I am no expert bream angler but having been fortunate to land one of the big bream from Wingham I will pass on my thoughts. For the record, the bait I used to catch my one and only monster was a 12mm pre-drilled halibut pellet fished on a short (4 inch) soft braid hooklength with a method feeder and a fishmeal based groundbait. I don't know what the other bream at Wingham were caught on but given the eel, rudd, pike and even tench population in the lake then I would be surprised if maggot or worm accounted for many of the other large bream. I am probably wrong here but I suspect that these types of baits would be prone to being snapped up by the other species and the resultant disturbance may cause any bream in the vicinity to move on pronto! Having said that then I am fairly certain that, if the bream move around in small groups, then you would have to be very unlucky to hook a small 'nuisance' fish at the same time that a small shoal of big bream came along. I am fairly certain that the bream at Wingham are not difficult to catch but they are few in number and are naturally very cautious due to it being a quiet water so you have to be in the right place at the right time. Consequently, if you do hook one then the others in the shoal will disperse which may account for the singleton catches. Multiple catches may not be as a result of not spooking the remainder of a shoal but as a result of a second, un-spooked shoal coming along. I think that at least one of the multiple catches was spread from dusk to dawn. I shall be focussing on the tench this year at Wingham until after they have spawned but, from July onwards, I shall concentrate on the bream. I will probably be using bigger baits (pellets, boilies, etc) on the hook and using fishmeal based groundbaits to provide a localised area of attractant to encourage the bream to stop and dip down on the bait. The trick will be selecting the place to put this "trap" down. The concept of "pinch points" is a good one and I suspect that quite a few of these are close in. It does mean being very quiet but fishing close to the biggest "feature" in the lake - the bank - is valid at Wingham because there is so very little bankside disturbance at night. Unlike other bream waters the bream at Wingham do feed very close in so you ignore the margins at your peril! In addition, because there are so many bars of varying heights and shape, fishing at any distance on Wingham is a risky business. Anyway, those are my thoughts for what they're worth. Keep the thread going though 'cos there are some real nuggets here. Steve C.

Not Wingham by any chance? 'Cos if it is, it might be a bit busy with you, Eddie and me there. Not to mention Steve Burke and guest! Steve C.

Glad to hear all went well Tony. You've certainly picked a good time to be laid up. The weather's lousy! I tried morris dancing once but kept falling off the bonnet! Boom Boom! Best wishes to you and the lovely Sue. Steve C.

Hi Steve, I suspect that interest has combined with results and have now reached a "critical mass" where you will always tend to be over subscribed. Personally, I hope that the results will be good enough to give some people a 'fish-of-a-lifetime' but not too many that the demand for places gets out of hand. There's no doubt that Wingham is a special water. One that has produced some cracking fish and, I believe, will go on to produce really spectacular ones too but it's not an easy water, especially in May, when the we are at the mercy of the weather as Anderoo indicates. Given that, it will be interesting to see exactly what the interest is next May. Heaven knows what the response would be like if Wingham produced a 20lb bream though!! Steve C.

[PPS To everyone. Whose turn to supply the bacon rolls? (I don't mind cooking them) Lyn, Put me down for the bacon. PM me with suggestions about quantity and I'll bring it down with me. Who's up for the rolls? Steve C.

Den, If you mean Steve Burke, he's been busy moving house with all the traumas that can bring. Steve C.

You may have a point there Budgie. I have always assumed that a line bite is caused by the fish lifting the line as it passes under neath but it does stretch the imagination a bit to think that very big bream could 'limbo dance' under a fishing line that is close to the bed of the lake. I suppose that these line bites could be as a result of the line being moved sideways or even being pushed down but I'm not sure that these actions would present themselves as classic up and down movements of the bobbin. I need to think a bit more about this. It sounds like a good topic for the group discussion though - "Is a line bite caused by the fish moving the line or the bait?" Good One Budgie!

I know Budgie, I've fished for them twice now and only caught one over 16lb! Anderoo - great thread mate! I've not contributed much but I've read the lot and, as Budgie says, it has made me look a lot harder at what I'm doing when targetting bream. The idea of putting a large bed of bait down and fishing a worm/corn bait over the top hoping to "stack 'em up like breeze blocks" doesn't work. I've just read Dick Walker's piece on how bream feed in his book "Catching Fish - Knowing their feeding habits" and it ties in very much with what has been said on this thread. He also reckons that bream 'wash' their food by alternately sucking and blowing. He says that he used to watch the bream at London Zoo up-end, suck in a mixture of the food and sand from the bottom, rise up a few inches first, then blow out the mouthful before sucking the piece of food back in. He claims that they often do this five or six times before they right themselves and move off. Like you, I'm looking to balance my bait so that it just sinks but then I'm going to wrap the bait in paste so that there is an intense, identifiable tiny patch of food and flavour that the bream will up-end over. Then, when they suck at this patch of food, they will suck in the pellet/boilie on a hair. Then, when they blow it out, the lightweight hook should do it's job and catch hold. Well, that's the theory anyway. The problem is, again as Dick says in his book, first you have to find your bream! But that's a different story! I'm looking forward to this w/e. It'll be good to meet up again and chew over these ideas. Regards, Steve C.

Now I may be going to "do your 'ead in" Andrew! In the fish environment there is no such thing as taste, smell or flavour as we know it. You see, what we humans call smell is the interaction of volatile molecules that have evaporated from the surface of the food with the chemoreceptors in our noses. As far as taste goes, for humans there are really only four - sweet, sour, salt and bitter that are detected in different places on your tongue. Flavour is the combination of the two, i.e. the smell of strawberries mixed with the taste of the fruit in your mouth. (People who have lost their sense of smell find food flavourless. Ever had a bad cold and not enjoyed your food?) With regard to fishing flavours, don't run away with the idea that if you flavour your bait with, say, strawberry flavour, that it will taste like strawberries to fish. Fish can't smell. They can only detect molecules/ions that are coming off the bait and interacting with their chemoreceptors. Fish constantly are sampling their environment by taking in water just like we do by breathing so they are able to detect if there is something edible in their vicinity. In the same way that we salivate when the smell of bacon cooking wafts up from the kitchen so fish can also react when they detect something nice. Now it gets a bit "technical". You were asking about how flavour disperses in water. Well, apart from the physical flow of water there is also the degree on ionisation or pH of the water. When you put any food in the water it will begin to dissolve. Some foods dissolve more quickly than others depending on temperature for instance but also on the pH of the lake water. It has long been thought that this can go someway to explain why particular baits are more successful than others. Great you might think, all I have to do is to find out what the pH of my water is and away we go. Except that the pH can vary in any lake depending on all sorts of factors such as temperature, depth, nature of the lake bed, etc.etc. Now this is all beginning to sound like an impossible task and to a certain degree I agree. However, I believe that you can begin to swing things in your favour by using an empirical method for flavouring. By this I mean, using foods as flavours. You want groundbaits to do certain physical things such as provide a bed of food to keep fish in the swim or to provide a cloud in the water to visually attract fish or whatever. So start off with that and then look to add natural products such as molasses, fishmeal, blended sweetcorn, maggots to add the main attraction. The really good thing about natural additives is that you can't over-flavour them to the same level that you can with chemical flavours. To sum this all up, I try and find out what works and don't worry about how it works. This is the attitude I adopt with artifical sweetcorn and maggots. I don't try and work out how we catch fish on them I just use them. Likewise, if someone says they caught loads of fish at the lake on So and So's pineapple boilies then I will give them a go and evaluate them myself. (BTW - I don't listen to the baits that don't work). Sorry to have gone on a bit but I spent many a long year in the past searching for "The Ultimate Carp Bait" unsuccessfully I might add! Regards, Steve C.

Thanks lads. A cracking fish - Yes; Well deserved? Mmm.... Probably not. I don't call myself an experienced bream fisher (it was my first double) but I was fishing for bream so I am well pleased. Somehow accidental catches don't quite have the same level of satisfaction do they? Steve C

I must admit it has been a bumper year so far - pb tench at 9lb 8oz then that lovely bream. A pb roach must be on the cards what!!?

Anderoo, I can't remember if you're going to be at Wingham in October? If you are, I could let you borrow a couple of my Korum twin tips for the weekend. The tops are 1.75lb and 2.2lb TC and I find them to be excellent. The lighter tip is great for flinging a maggot feeder at the horizon whereas the heavier tip allows you to lob a method feeder out. I like the idea of the flexibility that this gives. Steve C.

Great news Tony and KAYC! After landing my very first grayling last year, I'm now going to be looking at moving my roach pb up to the magic 2lb mark and I can't think of a nicer place to do it. I just hope the weather is a little kinder to us! Steve C.

Andrew, There was a thread on the Tenchfishers Members forum earlier this month about exactly the same thing. The best advice was . . . . There are three tests for a male tench: 1) The length of the pelvic (or ventral) fins. In male fish these will at least reach the anal opening and often will go beyond it by a few millimeters. 2) The thickness of the leading edge (more properly the second ray) of theses same fins. 3) The pelvic bumps or ridges which are generally visible. Dorsal and caudal fins are often larger than in female fish but these are not reliable indicators. Males can be a bit difficult to spot - particularly in younger fish . Generally the indicators of maleness become more pronounced as the fish gets older. You don't say how big it was but it looks quite young. I suspect it is a male that will acquire more "maleness" as it grows older. You see, the 'muscles' that are normally seen just above the ventral (pelvic) fins are the male reproductive organs and develop as the fish matures. Regards, Steve C.

Steve, I'll bring my spare long rod rests too - 48" extending to almost double that. They fit through the slots in the platforms so maybe useful. Regards, Steve C.

By the way - Just a reminder that, if you are arriving early on Saturday, there will be freshly cooked bacon and sausage butties plus tea and coffee available from 07:00 in the clubhouse for any that want them. (Elton - Heinz Tomato Ketchup or HP Sauce OK included ). See you there. Steve C.