Bob Bradford

Sorry for the delay Gozzer (John) but work got in the way, I have cut and pasted your questions to Mark Lloyd on the Angling Trust forum, please keep an eye out for his response on there, as I may not have the time to cut and paste them on here, Regards Bob.

Leon, is there any evidence these measures are working? if they are, then why the proposed by-laws on rod and line caught Eels? Gozzer (John) pertinent questions that need answering ............but not by me, by Mark Lloyd or Mike Heylin I would have thought, would you like me to ask these questions on the Angling Trust forum on your behalf?

I agree, I agree I agree! really most of us are not that far apart with our thoughts, which is precisely why, as a concerned member of the Angling Trust I asked Mark Lloyd recently, and on the Angling Trust forum, to expand on his/AT's thoughts regarding the issue of commercial netting, I am still waiting for a reply, perhaps he has not spotted it, so I will ask the question of him, and again ,and again and again, until he answers, fair enough Worms?

Yes, it was my attempt at a little levity, this thread has become very depressing and going round and round in circles, I will try to appeal to the common sense and reasoning of some one last time, although I will not hold my breath though, here goes; I am suggesting the White noise is emanating from this forum, or at least from a few of it's members, they drone on and on relentlessly, in the end people stop listening, this thread is dripping with negativity, I have read through all of it and it is the same few protagonists, they spend hours on here, would they not be better employed doing something more constructive and meaningful? Lets take a look at the Eel issue, I live in the East of England and there was a time when all the major rivers, Welland,Witham,Trent ,Nene, Yare, Waveney, Bure etc, were over run with them, some of the matches I used to fish, one had to target the Eel as a match winning option, such was their abundance! Now go to any of those rivers and TRY and catch one ,single solitary Eel, it is nigh on impossible, such is the extent of it's demise........so as a conservationist and realist, ask yourself what exactly it is the new proposed legislation is asking you to "give up?" To continue catching it's ever decreasing numbers and taking them for the pot is nothing short of vandalism, to demand the right to do so is nothing short of criminal. I realise that some of you see the Eel issue as a point of principle that you must make a stand on, an eroding of your "free will?", I also realise that some of you are responsible enough to catch and release all the Eels you catch because you are aware of their plight, but not every angler will show the same logic or compassion........hence the new proposals, we, anglers, have to take responsibility because no-one else will. These fish need protecting NOW! and the new proposed by-law are one small step toward that aim, we have to compromise to ask others to compromise, indeed , we have to demand the commercial Eel netters give up their livelihood, some like Steve are demanding just that, so a man must give up his only form of income to appease you, but you will not give up the right to take "one for the pot Steve?" can you not see how unjust and selfish that is? Stop being so bloody minded and petty, anglers can lead the way on this , and show the world we are prepared to make sacrifices for the good of the common Eel, I will be fighting as hard as anyone to stop the commercial netting of Eels, lets do this together ,standing shoulder to shoulder like responsible anglers for the overall good of angling eh?

Not spin pal, just pointing out a fact. Some are so concerned about their angling, but they actually do nothing of any significance , they take but put nothing back, they wish to be heard, but will not pay to be heard, they want an organisation but will not join one, they talk of "rights" but will not fight for their "rights", ...................I think White Noise sums them up accurately enough. Regards Bob.

http://www.whitenoisemachine.co.uk/

Steve and Barry, Have you ever heard of the term "White Noise"?.

The question anglers like Barry should be asking is; What is the point of the Angling Trust existing, if anglers refuse to join it? It is totally unrealistic to expect the Angling Trust to have the resources to fight tooth and nail for anglers rights with very little or no financial support. Remind me again.................How many sea anglers are members of the Angling Trust? No pay, no say.

Anyone?

Here is a snippet from the e-mail I posted on another thread earlier today, the e-mail is directly from the EA to me; "Since the earlier consultation, we have decided to postpone our eel and elver net fishing proposals until 2011 (the urgent need to introduce net fishing close seasons for 2010 will be provided through another route)." I do not know what the "other route "is, though..................anyone know?

The point is, if the Angling Trust had a much larger membership, the EA would be forced to consult it, therefore us as anglers, I repeat by anglers choosing not to join the Trust ,they are choosing to be insignificant, they have NO say whatsoever and the Trust has very little real clout, it is not brain surgery is it? I am sure the Trust can and should do more to recruit anglers, I am sure they are far,far from perfect, I am sure I will never agree with all of their policy's, by I am equally sure, cutting my nose off to spoil my face is just plain daft, the end game or big picture if you like,is what overrides everything IMO, right now we have a chance to be represented and heard, kill that chance through lack of financial support and we are well and truly stuffed for ever, we will all just have to sit back and take whatever the EA dish out to us, I do not care how many e-mails or letters Barry Luxton sends either, admirable as they are, it will count for precisely nothing mate.

No Budgie, they e-mailed me because I was one of the few anglers to take part in their survey, I did this as an Un-elected, conscientious and concerned angler, the survey was brought to my attention by a member of another angling forum, he is also a member of the Angling Trust, and has already been criticized on here for having a view contrary to some ! It stands to reason the Angling Trust can only be viewed by the EA on it's membership numbers, so they will look at the 14,000 membership , plus any individual comments made by people like me , so therefore duplicated in many of the 800 responses received to them...........and plough on regardless! the first thing they will do is state only a small % of anglers responded to the proposals, so by default , the majority are for them......this is precisely why it is imperative that the majority of anglers join the Angling Trust. This is what I mean by the majority of anglers choosing to be insignificant, not to me, not to the Angling Trust but to the Government and therefore the EA Government dept, this is what I keep banging my bloody head against mate.

This is what I received in full via e-mail. Dear sir or madam, We are advertising new fisheries byelaws on 16 December 2009. Earlier this year we invited you to contribute to a debate on proposed byelaws covering – - coarse fish, eel and shad removal by rod and line; - close seasons for brown trout and salmon in stillwaters; - net fishing for eel and elver. We received replies from over 1000 people and organisations, for which we are extremely grateful. We have collated and published a summary of the responses on our website at http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homea...ing/112102.aspx. The comments and views we received during this informal consultation helped us develop our proposals further. We are now advertising the final byelaws, as we are obliged to do in law, giving anyone an opportunity to object or offer support to them. What byelaws are included? Since the earlier consultation, we have decided to postpone our eel and elver net fishing proposals until 2011 (the urgent need to introduce net fishing close seasons for 2010 will be provided through another route). However, we are proceeding with proposals to – - regulate coarse fish, eel and shad removal by rod and line; - dispense with the brown trout close season on stillwater fisheries. In addition, we are taking the opportunity to remove the coarse fishing close season from a 5 stillwater Sites of Special Scientific Interest in England, where angling is perceived not to affect the conservation value of the site, and from 22 enclosed stillwater fisheries which fall within, but are not part of the Norfolk Broads. When the Marine and Coastal Access Act was made law in November 2009, it prohibited the use of the tailer and gaff as accessories to angling. We need to repeal existing byelaws that have allowed their use. By advertising, we are giving anyone the opportunity offer support or object to the proposals. We have placed a statutory notice in the London Gazette and on-line adverts on the websites of the Times, Telegraph, Mirror, Western Mail and Daily Post and on several angling media websites. We have issued a press release to the angling and national media; written to the principal angling and fisheries representatives; and, via this e-mail, we are notifying the 850+ people who responded by e-mail to the informal consultation. How can I respond? A copy of each byelaw is attached, together with a short explanation. You can also obtain the byelaws from www.environment-agency.gov.uk/fish/byelaws, by phoning 08708 506 506* or from any Environment Agency office, where they may be inspected during office hours. If you wish to object or offer support to the new byelaws, please write to Alexander Kinninmonth at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Marine and Freshwater Biodiversity Division, Area 2D, Nobel House, 17 Smith Square, London SW1P 3JR (alexander.kinninmonth@defra.gsi.gov.uk) or to Graham Rees at the Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru/Welsh Assembly Government, Yr Uned Bysgodfeydd/Fisheries Unit, Rhodfa Padarn, Llanbadarn Fawr, Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 3UR (fisheries@wales.gsi.gov.uk). The closing date for objections is Wednesday 20 January 2010. At the same time, please send a copy to Mat Crocker, Head of Fisheries, Environment Agency, Rio House, Waterside Drive, Aztec West, Almondsbury, Bristol, BS32 4UD or by e-mail to fisheries@environment-agency.gov.uk. At the end of the consultation period, copies of the responses may be made public. The information contained may also be published in a summary of responses. If you do not consent to this, you must clearly request that your response be treated confidentially. You should also be aware that there may be circumstances in which the Environment Agency will be required to communicate information to third parties on request, in order to comply with its obligations under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Environmental Information Regulations. What happens next? We will reply to anyone objecting to the byelaws, responding to the issues they raise and inviting them to withdraw their objection. After 20 January, we will formally apply to the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers for confirmation of the byelaws, enclosing any outstanding objections and suggested modifications. I hope you find this helpful. Yours faithfully

Dave B, your last paragraph is poignant, there is so much ill informed opinion out there, the trouble is, some anglers are seizing upon this "information" to justify not joining the Angling Trust, why they do this is beyond me, after-all, it is their right not to join, so why not leave it at that? instead of spewing out lies and falsehoods at every opportunity? this issue alone frustrates and annoys the hell out of me, the amount of negativity generated by these thoughtless, selfish actions is very,very damaging and unfair to the Trust and to people like Mark Lloyd , anglers have to understand just how stretched the Trust is, in terms of money and time, remember, seven members of staff lost their jobs in this, their very first year....... why? because of lack of funds available to the Trust., this is bound to affect their performance is it not? ......... here we have the classic "chicken and egg" scenario. I have stated many,many times that paying the £20 membership fee is a leap of faith , just as it was/ is for me , but logic dictates this is the ONLY way the Trust can start to deliver a proper service, anglers should look upon it as an investment with long term returns ,and not a get rich quick scheme, patience is required, a virtue I thought anglers were renowned for! The truth is not palatable for some, but unfortunately the truth is, a lot of informed anglers are the guilty party in this, they just refuse to accept responsibility for it. So I urge each and every one of you to put aside your prejudices and join the Angling Trust, part with your £20, put your full weight of support behind the concept and, as a joined up member, make sure the Trust delivers to the uninformed..........it is the only way, the duty is on you as a caring, informed and concerned angler.

"The get a life girlfriend "line was my attempt at humour, oh! well never mind, to be honest I am worn down by all of this, ground into the dust, I have never encountered so much negativity, I feel almost suicidal!!! anyone would think the Angling Trust was an anti angling organisation reading through some of the outrageous comments on here. I think it is best not to feed you with anymore ammo, I agree Davy, this thread is doing nothing to help the Angling Trust, including my part in it, so I will stop feeding the trolls at this point. Regards Bob.

I have answered ALL of your questions, look again at my last post and where I have quoted you, your failure to see my replies , is proof positive, you have your head firmly up your own jacksie, .......get it?......I doubt it. Get a life girlfriend

Answer: real angler? well your definition of a real angler and mine are worlds apart pal, ....get it?....I doubt it. For the record, I respect anyone's right to abstain from joining the Angling Trust, but I do not respect the endless stream of guff spewing forth, from those that try to justify their decision to abstain.

Thanks for the link captain, unfortunately the content is scant, very little detail there, is there any more info available? what are the perceived "problems" caused by anglers?

That sums my thoughts up perfectly, you will get what you deserve, unfortunately the rest of us will have to suffer, history shows angling is a complete walkover for any organisation with a bit of clout or power. How do I feel about this? well I think it is fair to say, I am not in the least surprised by some of the attitudes shown here. One day the rod licence fees will go up by a substancial margin............who you gonna call? One day your local river will be polluted and all fish life destroyed.........who you gonna call? One day your local council will put signs up saying "boat moorings ,no fishing".......who you gonna call? One day sea angling will be banned from piers and breakwaters "because of the mess anglers make".......who you gonna call? One day ad nausea One day the penny will drop for you........but it will be too late.

Fair enough Budgie, your choice mate, one thing you can be absolutly certain of though, you will never have a say, but sadly, by taking such a negative stance, you could influence the future of angling.............in a negative way, Good luck mate ,and who knows? , we may meet on the bank one day.

Worms do not start with the insults, I do not wish for this to turn ugly.....right? Look, the EA are agents of the Government, the EA have not consulted (other than an on-line survey, to my knowledge at least) with the majority of anglers, a small minority of anglers, including myself have responded, THESE ARE THE ANGLERS THE EA WILL TREAT AS RELEVANT.............together with the views of the Angling Trust, of which 4 or 5 members ,including yours truly and Steve Coppollo, have responded to the CEO's request for input on the Angling Trust forum for all to see............that's it, there is no more!!! So the views and opinions of the minority of anglers will dictate the outcome. Now ask yourself why? Because the EA can, and does, run roughshod over the majority of anglers, the majority CHOOSE to be unrepresented, so they cannot expect to be consulted individually, other than an on-line questionnaire, nor can their views be expected to be heard properly. Now if any of you think this is unfair, wrong, whatever, what do you think you can do about it? Individual, next to nothing is the honest answer, which is precisely what is happening, and has happened for as long as I can remember, I recall the way angling got shafted with the lead shot poisoning debacle in the 1980s, anglers never had proper representation and the rest is history. The Angling Trust is angling's only chance of proper representation, and anglers must focus on the big picture, put aside their prejudices and get behind the concept by becoming a member, then once they are a shareholder or member, take the responsibility to shape it into a representitive organisation they can all be proud of, by choosing not to join, you only serve to strengthen the EA and weaken the Trust, and anything the EA choose to implement upon us without proper consultation, angling does have a voice in the shape of the fledgling Angling Trust, but it is a whisper because the membership uptake is so low, if you want it to roar , it becomes a numbers game, if you want a slick, combative and responsive organisation you will have to pay for it. I am saying the majority of anglers are seen as irrelevant, because they choose to be irrelevant, that is not the fault of the Angling Trust, the fault lies squarely with anglers........... like it or not. It is a leap of faith to believe in, and support the Angling Trust...........but what are the alternatives? if in 5 years or £100 of your hard earned money (5x £20) it is an abject failure, then we were duped and all hope is lost, kill the Trust at birth and we will never know.

Once again you have taken my words in the wrong way, let me spell it out one more time, By choosing to stay outside angling's only representative organisation to Government, ECHO aside, you only achieve one thing, and that is to be irrelevant to Government, I really cannot put this significant point any clearer , there is nothing "elitest" in joining the Angling Trust if you live in England, the doors are open to all. Sorry John, but you are delusional if you think you can make a significant difference as an individual, who will listen to you? I am disillusioned at the majority of anglers in England, the recent EA on-line survey regarding the proposed new by-laws concerning the removal of fish for the pot etc, is a perfect example of non action, disinterest and total indifference by the majority, anglers refuse to take responsibilty, that is why an organisation (AT) with an individual membership of nearly 14,000 is able to drive angling policy's , it is not brain surgery, in todays society , you have to pay to have a say, I do not make the rules, but thems the rules! embrace that simple concept, and change angling for the better from within, that is the challenge, that is what any angler worthy of the name should be doing, taking responsibilty, surely that is far more productive than a self imposed exile based on a point of principle? I really am baffled at the lack of logic used in this instance. I am doing it again! ,banging my head against the wall, and a pound to a penny , subsequent posts on this thread will endorse my earlier view , of one of futility trying to convince a handful of people that simply refuse to listen to reason.

I am leaving the handful of dinosaurs that exist on here to it, not because I feel intimidated ,threatened or even bested by sound logical argument , nor do I deserve or require a medal , please don't delude yourselves , although it is true, delusion is rife amoung you, you are not scarey in the slightest. The fact is ,you have zero influence , your comments carry no weight or sway, your "fight" is already lost, the penny is yet to drop still!!!! and I can see the futilty of trying to persuade any of you to the contrary, I simply cannot be bothered to even try, ......why do you think the main players of the Angling Trust do not indulge you on here? By choosing to fight as individuals, you have chosen to be irrelevant, I wish you all the best with your futile rants and whinges on here.................whatever floats your boat I guess? Regards and a happy new year, to each and every one of you. Bob.

Sportsman, go on the Angling Trust website and ask them , I was invited on here to express my opinions, to offer a different perspective and perhaps get some anglers to have a re-think, I am not an agent of the Angling Trust, nor do I represent them in any way, shape or form, someone said this forum could do with some "Fresh Blood" I am beginging to think they meant "Sacreficial Blood", Is it any wonder the same small, handful of posters contribute to this part of the forum? I am not at your beck and call trying to answer questions you can quite easily find out for yourself, but here is one for free, the annual membership to the Angling Trust is £20, and not the £22 you state as fact. Wurzel, the same reply applies to you, I resent the fact you think I will provide you with all the answers only for you to pick holes in them at a later date, if you are truly interested do as I do and ask the Angling Trust directly, if you can be bothered that is. That's it from me, I do not desire nor need this systematic Internet bullying by anglers that should know better, I will leave you to your small,tiny piece of internet turf to whinge on, and on, and achieve precisely nothing, Regards Bob. PS, Thank you for re-instating me on your website Elton, I am sorry if you feel I wasted your time and effort.

Hi Budgie, I hope you are keeping well mate, I have asked Mark Lloyd CEO of the Angling Trust several pertinent questions on these proposals, like, how the EA are going to police these properly etc, and this is one area where the Trust will prove it's worth, by putting pressure on the EA to deliver a proper service for our licence money, anglers as individuals simply cannot do this, but enough of the salesman in me, I will relate to you a true account of the difficulty's of policing conflicting rules and by-laws. Two summers ago I volunteered to club bailiff for Bungay Cherry Tree AC, my beat was the Dunburgh stretch of river just outside Beccles in Suffolk, this stretch was being targeted by Eastern Europeans, catching, killing and eating the natural fish stocks, indiscriminatly and without a thought for conservation, now, my club insists on catch and release with no exceptions, so within a couple of weeks of diligent bailiffing by me, and dispite the usual "no speak English" and being heavily out numbered I managed to educate the vast majority, on the face of it things improved, and club members could fish Dunburgh and get value for their membership money and rod licence fee. But, and here is the rub, I only had powers on the part of the river that was controlled by the club, up to the boat house to be precise, beyond this point, it is free fishing, the Eastern Europeans discovered this fact, and for the rest of the summer, camped out en mass and severly depleated the natural fish stocks, we got the EA down ther ( after a bit of persuation from me) and they checked some for rod licences on a surprise visit, no-one was breaking the law to my knowledge, except for the filthy rubbish deposited on the river bank from B-B-Qs etc, it could not be proven conclusivly who left it of course! That part of the river is now severely depleted of natural fish stocks, fish swim, and they do not know the difference between a catch and release area and a take two for the pot area, 8-10 anglers taking two for the pot all summer has had a devastating effect, to the point where the Eastern Europeans have moved elsewhere!!! So now my club have a lovely stretch of river paid for by it's members............but with very low remaining natural fish stocks, if you were the club secretary, how would you encourage renewal of memberships or even new memberships for that stretch of river? how who you teach young anglers to fish a water where you get no bites? the club has a healthy junior section but they will learn nothing fishing that part of the Waveney mate. Now, with the proposed blanket ban of the taking of fish, the EA have no excuses, all of the onus is on them to deliver a proper service and Mark Lloyd has assured me the AnglingTrust will do everything in it's power to pressure them to this end. I agree it is a huge compromise for anglers of an older generation, giving up what they consider to be their right, but times have changed and there are just too many other threats to natural fish stocks to allow the taking of two for the pot to continue, this is just a small piece of the jigsaw to ensure future generations of anglers, have fish to fish for on our rivers.......my opinion of course!