andy_youngs

No, I think this issue will get a good airing on this thread. That's the whole pont of it.

Ken, this is not about the Severn. It's about the Wensum and Hampshire Avon. And whether or not the taxpayer should be financing the artificial stocking of these rivers with barbel, when the barbel actively predate on all the endangered species for which these rivers have received their respective conservation designations. Both of these rivers have been in the headlines in recent years for canoe access disputes, and to me it defies logic how anglers on such environmentally 'shaky' ground could be so intolerant of others. Barbel are not native to either of these catchments, but they continue to be artificially stocked in defiance of written assurances to the contrary from the Environment Agency. Can you imagine how insulting it is for a canoeist on one of these rivers to have a barbel fisherman accusing him of being an environmental vandal? Most normal people would find such an attitude HIGHLY inflammitory. So do I.

I'm not sure who the current mods are, maybe the yanks Phone / Newt. Not sure, whoever, I kind of trust them because over the years I've visited some pretty controvercial ground on this forum, and they've always held steady for me. Newt is definately a mod, and a bit of a wise old coot, although he did send me an unwarrented formal warning once. But that was a long time ago. We could visit some controvercial ground now, if you like. If you would like to hear a controvercial story that will p$ss a load barbel fishermen off .... are you sitting comfortably?

It's about canoe access on the Rivers Wensum and Hampshire Avon. The purpose of this thread is for people on all sides of the canoe access debate to pitch in. Believe me, I've pushed these mods to the very limits, but they just wont ban me. So feel free to say whatever you want with impunity ....

OK, having another look at this Lutra. It looks like it might be sensible to start another thread about these issues. Lutra / Fred, thanks for the debate (hopefully ongoing) Hugh Miles / Martin Salter : care to join us? I'll post another thread shortly which follows on from this. The objective will be that all antagonism from the canoe access dispute on the Wensum and Hampshire Avon gets put in a box, and left behind.

This thread started about barbel handling, but has since progressed through moral and financial corruption, bullying, and lying. And I will not be quiet.

This thread is about Hugh Miles manipulating the truth, and misrepresenting my angling interests. I realise that my noise makes this uncomfortable for some, but no, I will not be quiet. You haven't answered any of my questions. You have just tried to avoid them, which is visible to all.

Are you going to say anything of substance, or are you just waffling? Tell us something we want to hear, like the barbel stocking history of the Hampshire Avon. Please Lutra, either do that, or be quiet. This is what I'm like when I care about something.

Can't find the hooks and attractants thread Phone. Tell me where it is, then ok away we go ... Just out of interest, do you have any Irish ancestry in you? I just sense a bit of celtic fire in there ....

Yep, I'm all for that I really don't think there's any compromise to be had with the barbel fraternity. As far as they're concerned, canoe access to the Wensum and Hampshire Avon Rivers is illegal. As it stands, canoeists will continue to ignore anglers on these rivers, and a stalemate impasse will perpetuate.

I will. I don't mind jumping in head first (or feet first ...)

Come off it mate, that ain't gonna happen. As long as there are anglers and landowners out there resisting canoe access, then there will be campaigners kicking against it. And they ain't just going to roll over you know. They want to see a formal moratorium placed on all further barbel introductions into rivers which have no natural record of a barbel presence within the last 150 years. I think this case is particularly acute on SAC rivers like the Wensum or the Hampshire Avon. I agree that some parts of the country are private. But that doesn't extend to landowners applying an access ban on these public navigations. In any event, the canoeists will just continue to paddle down these rivers anyway, and stick two fingers up at you. And the conflicting interests will continue to fester and grind out more friction and hard feelings. That's the reality. I know that for a fact, because I'm one of the protagonists. If you seriously want to try and stop the cycle, then please don't mess around with unrealistic suggestions like 'best learn to live with it'. I guarantee you, that ain't gonna happen. If you really want to move this matter forward, take out a court injunction against someone.

This horse has certainly been put to bed by you many, many times ...... and has then been resurrected by me many, many times ....

I don't understand Lutra. The link I posted about the Royalty Fishery asserts that barbel were first introduced into the Hampshire Avon in the early 1900's, and the first specimen was caught from the river in 1911. Under the Environment Agency's 150 year rule, they are therefore deemed non-native. Perhaps someone from the Environment Agency might like to confirm / deny? And yes, we did have this one before. Unfortunately, this is what happens when people who live in glass houses start throwing stones. And so now, we're having it again. You may not recall me presenting any convincing evidence that barbel have been extinct in the Wensum since the end of the last ice age, but I don't recall you pointing out to anyone that the last ice age ended approximately 428,000 years ago, whilst just 12,000 years ago there was a land bridge between England and mainland Europe, and sea levels were some 120 metres lower than they are today. And all the scientific evidence suggests that there have never been barbel in any of the westerly flowing rivers such as the Hampshire Avon. And so far, nobody has offered any visibility over the stocking history of the Hampshire Avon. Why the secrecy? Dunno, and you really seem to have no idea how little I care

Oh for goodness sake. This is sadder than Come Dancing. I'm sure somebodies already done this, but mine's a Mitchell 300. Now please, let's move on ...

I got half way through it and then got bored. What's the point?

I have found this link though : http://www.southernfisheries.com/homethefi...altybarbel.html And this one : http://jncc.defra.gov.uk/protectedsites/sa...ucode=uk0013016 The situation on the Hampshire Avon seems similar to the situation on the Wensum, They're both SAC rivers. In the case of the Hampshire Avon, this designation was made in order to protect indigenous stocks of bullhead, brook lamprey, atlantic salmon, sea lamprey and desmoulins whorl snail. And as we all know, barbel actively predate on all these species with the exception of atlantic salmon. Mostly, salmon are too big to be devoured by barbel. I understand that the barbel are very partial to eating the salmon eggs and the fry though. Both rivers have been artificially stocked with non-native barbel. And then the barbel fishermen on both rivers have gone to extraordinary lengths to try and close "their" rivers down to canoe access. And both rivers have recently received a visit from 'conservationist and Angling Trust Ambassador', Mr Hugh Miles. Finally, my belief is that not only does this unfortunate situation contravene implied requirements of the Habitats Directive, it also contradicts section 2, paragraph 8 if the following meeting minutes held between the AT and the EA on the 11 October 2011 : "The Angling Trust also reported that the Agency was considering giving consent to stock barbel in what would otherwise be natural trout rivers. Barbel could prevent trout from re-establishing. Adrian Taylor said the Agency would only give consent to stock barbel in rivers within its natural range and considered the balance between species’ abundance when consenting additional stocking." The minutes can be viewed here : http://www.anglingtrust.net/news.asp?secti...amp;itemid=1018 Quite frankly, I can only conclude from this information that the Environment Agency are lying, and the Angling Trust are being neglegently naive and cynically manipulated.

It seems the Angling Trust thread on this forum has been closed down. Not sure why. Feel free to post your democratic views about this institution here .....

Try paddling the river first, preferably in the closed fishing season so that you don't disturb others. If anyone jumps out and shouts at you, then video them, and post it on Youtube.

No, that doesn't really help. I asked for the barbel stocking history of the Hampshire Avon to be made public (which I'm sure has been largely subsidised by the taxpayer). I could always make a freedom of information request you know .... Never heard of Mr Walli.

I'm not sure that helps Clive. I appreciate that you are probably a bit emotional about something or other right now, and I also agree that some campaigners might be in denial about the realities of survival on this planet, but that's no reason for using silly terms like 'culling', especially not in this context. I suggest that we use best endeavours to persuade people to harvest their natural resources in a sustainable manner. To my mind, that includes seals, otters etc, but excludes humans.

And it's all gone quiet over there ... hushhhhh

Erm, Eltons just made it available for free? So I guess you no longer have to sell it. Partially informative video, but I'm not sure that some of it wasn't filmed on the Wensum. Interesting how these same issues keep cropping up, Wensum, Hampshire Avon, barbel, access dispute .... If there are any members of the EA out there, I'd be interested to know the barbel stocking history of the Hampshire Avon?

I'm afraid my issue here go's back to post #1. It's about seals. They predate, and the pelts and meat are worth money. So why aren't we harvesting them in the same way as we do cod, pollack etc???? It's not as if there's any shortage of them. The reason is that the European Commission has banned all trade in all seal products. And the reason for that is about mollifying the percieved 'moral majority' with bullsh$t politics.

I think it seems like quite a good idea. So we have a giant floating 'resevour' of saltwater fish which is peddled around the world. Designed and built in Britiain. Blimey.