Someone Is Listening

[Jaffa]

A great believer

 

I believe that without proper control and enforcement fishermen's own short term interests will always prevail to the detriment of the fishstocks.

 

http://darwin.bio.uci.edu/~sustain/bio65/l...mercial_whaling

 

California Sardine Fishery

One of the first examples was the California sardine fishery, which was ruined by overfishing. In the 1936-37 season, 3/4 million tons were taken in California waters, and in subsequent years the fleet was enlarged as the catch per boat began to drop. The fishing fleet ignored advice from biologists and carried on fishing at too high a rate. By 1957-58 the catch was only 17 tons. The fishery never recovered. Its monument is Cannery row in Monterey. Another west coast fish that was harvested to commercial extinction, the Pacific Red Snapper, is now being proposed for listing under the Endangered Species Act.

 

And would you be one of those getting paid for making sure "their" short term interests are a problem?

 

I don't know anything much about the California sardine fishery, but i do know most pelagic fisheries are tightly linked to the plankton, and that weird and wonderful things happen up that coast.

 

Care to tell me what the ocean conditions were like during that period the fishery destroyed the sardine?

[wurzel]

Quote

The Government’s stated goal of “clean, healthy, safe, productive and biologically diverse oceans and seas” will only be achieved if the framework governing inshore sea fisheries is seen as a priority issue within the Marine Bill, given that fishing in the inshore sector is known to have a critical impact on the marine ecosystem."

 

and Quote

So overall I would say that the phrase you ask about means: there has been no strategic planning, or setting of objectives related to that naturally occurring assemblage of organisms (plant, animal and other living organisms—also referred to as a biotic community or biocoenosis) living together with their environment that is often refered to as the marine environment.

 

It's all meaningless waffle, and when it's waffled by DEFRA it realy means, lets have loads of meetings, consultations , write hundreds of pages of meaningless crap , and be seen to be very busy doing nothing particular while getting paid lots of tax payers money.

 

Nature can't manage it's self, so how the hell are they going to do it.

 

Quote

Care to tell me what the ocean conditions were like during that period the fishery destroyed the sardine?

 

I was wondering the same.

[Ian Burrett]

Hi Ian,

 

I honestly believe that if they had political control over their own affairs, then we would be in a much better place now.

 

 

Chris

 

We are witnessing some self management in Drummore at the moment which i suspect would be fairly typical if self mangement was encouraged on a wider scale.

 

Last year 28 clam dredgers arrived in Luce bay. Not only did they wreck the bottom but they towed away £2500 worth of the local lads lobster and buckie pots.

 

FYI they are only allowed to fish from Nov. 1st until March the 31st

 

So for this coming season, after a great deal of discussion involving MSP's SNH etc. they came to a gentleman's code of practise. The clammers agreed not to fish at night and not to tow within a mile of the shoreline.

 

November 1st came and guess what? They came in at midnight close to shore and towed a load more gear away. A war is about to commence between the clammers and the local fisherman.

 

Also last year the local boys were again in action with calls for bans when a super crabber came into Luce bay from Cornwall, he shot more pots in one day then they collectively fished in one week.

 

Can it be right that one type of fisherman has the right and the Horse Power. to destroy the livlihhods of local fishermen?

 

In the event of self mangement the bullyboys would win every time

[Ken Davison South Wales]

The Government’s stated goal of “clean, healthy, safe, productive and biologically diverse oceans and seas” will only be achieved if the framework governing inshore sea fisheries is seen as a priority issue within the Marine Bill, given that fishing in the inshore sector is known to have a critical impact on the marine ecosystem."

 

As stated before I am not an expert and tend to work of my personal experiences over the years.

 

One area I fished as a younster for some fifteeen to twenty years was Boscombe Rough. This was a large area of mussel beds and it produced a wide range of fish.

 

Rays, flat fish, skate, cod, whiting and back then cod from Boscombe Pier in the winter season were very common and you could rely on catching them.

 

Why were they there then and not now.

 

Well the mussel beds have been destroyed by trawling which equals no natural food, no fish.

 

Nothing to do with climate change as adjacent areas which are very rocky and protect the bed still produce a full range of fish.

 

This is not fiction even the local fishermen agree that is what happened.

 

Can these areas be restored is the question we now face, being an optimist I think we can.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Ken Davison South Wales

[spanner]

"Nature can't manage it's self"

 

That's a pretty ignorant comment wurzel, and I hope it was only a flippant comment and not really indicative of a total lack of understanding on your part.

[wurzel]

Quote

Last year 28 clam dredgers arrived in Luce bay. Not only did they wreck the bottom but they towed away £2500 worth of the local lads lobster and buckie pots.

 

I know very little of clam dredgeing, only that they seem to cause grief were ever they go.

 

Hello Ken

Quote

Well the mussel beds have been destroyed by trawling which equals no natural food, no fish.

I'm not denieing this does not happen, but more often than not is a natural occurrance. I do not know the area, localy rocky ground is more stable but the surounding areas are constanly changeing.

 

Quote

 

Nature can't manage it's self"

 

That's a pretty ignorant comment wurzel, and I hope it was only a flippant comment and not really indicative of a total lack of understanding on your part.

 

I'm very serious, I don't make remarks with out thinking about it first.

 

It's more to do with the lack of understanding on your part.

 

When ever are things just perfect in nature? Never! It's either too hot or too cold, too wet or too dry. when is there just enough wind to scatter a few seeds, often it destorys the tree that produses the seeds, nature cocks up all the time, the same with different animals and more so with fish. when is it just perfect for all the species all the time? Never, there are huge swings in populations all the time, nature is constantly cocking thing up,some times to the advantage of some species but not to others, Nature is never stable,it's management gone mad, and man will never stabilise it .

[Ken Davison South Wales]

Nature is never stable,it's management gone mad, and man will never stabilise it .

 

But as I see it we certainly add to the mayhem

[Jaffa]

Reads Wurzel's and Spanner's last posts.

 

Remembers Chaos theory fisheries management

 

Doubt facts, confuse the ordiance, kill the messenger - who pays you?

 

I see no need to tell you about the ocean conditions. This was just one of plenty examples of overfishing. This time in a sea not affected much by the World War2 - bad luck for this sardine stock.

 

Fair point about the "who pays you comment". I apologise for that.

 

From what little Ive read about the sardine fishery, its a poor example to try and use to illustrate the problem of overfishing though. As i understand it, according to studies of scale remnants in the sediments, sardine stocks appear to have crashed many times before and this is linked to oceanographic conditions.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Jaffa

[Jaffa]

Can it be right that one type of fisherman has the right and the Horse Power. to destroy the living of local fishermen?

 

In the event of self management the bullyboys would win every time

 

I have no liking for clam dredging and would happily see the method banned. I take your point though, and would add that these kind of conflicts (mobile vs static gear/the rights of locals) are not new. The sea lochs of the west coast have had these kind of problems for years.

 

The local lads (including you) need the power to stop this happening, just as it should be up to local communities to decide if a fish farm should get the go ahead ; not remote organisations like the Scottish executive/defra, the London media, environmental groups et al.

 

Have you tried contacting the HSE about the electro fishing Ian? They are useless IME but may help in this case. Does this electro fishing do any damage to the seabed in your opinion though?

 

BTW I do wonder how many of the razorfish divers have switched from clams to razors because of the restrictions on them due to heavy handed HSE diving rules, and over the top food safety rules, from the Food Standards agency.

 

There will be problems with fishermen managing things but its not all doom and gloom. Look at what the Shetlanders are achieving, and look at how the east coast creel fishery pretty much self polices. As things stand though, what's to stop a couple of supercrabbers appearing over the horizon and destroying the offshore lobster stocks that the locals depend on for recruitment? I can't think of any mechanism that would stop it atm. Can you?

 

Chris

[spanner]

Good article Jaffa, but it makes my case exactly.

 

Nature always manages itself, pefectly, that is what nature is.

 

Wurzel, who ever said things should be 'perfect'.....and who gets to define what perfect is......unless you think planet earth is here just to be a playground for man, like the Garden of Eden.

 

We might not understand it and we might not be able to predict it, but we ceratinly mess up when we try to control it. Essentialy, you cannot control or beat nature, and when you try the consequences will always bite you in the bum one way or another.

 

Sitting back and saying things are fine, nature always bounces back is one option.....but not a sensible one as nature's solution might not be to our liking........

 

The biggest problem I see is that nobody can decide on exactly what we do need, in a practicle sense, to get a desired outcome, assuming we can even agree on that, and here I mean the recent discussion about targeting a single species like bass.

 

The question "what is a sustainable fishing industry" has frequently been posted and the answers are always just a restatement of the phrase sustainable fishing, or management techno-babble and buzz-words. Wurzel and Binatone are right on that score. Nobody has a detailed answer as nobody really understands the problem.

 

We are part of nature but we have rapidly become the single biggest chaotic influence in nature. We have enough knowldedge and technology to be very dangerous but still don't have enough uuderstanding to predict or control the outcome of our actions.

 

The problem is that without a true understanding of the complexity of the eco-system we never will get a proper grip on things, and all we can try and do is manage with loose reined control trying to understand what is happening as we go. That will take co-operation between both scientists and commercials, as well all other 'stakeholders', and at the moment I still too much mistrust on both sides.

 

To assume that fishery scientists are only interested in their pay packet and don't give a toss about the real outcome is just as bad as assuming all commercials are greedy bar-stewards who similarly don't give a toss. Yep there will be a few bad eggs, as in all walks of life, but you have to work toward developing trust with the decent majority.

 

If the commercials don't work with the scientists and vise versa then the situation outlined in Jaffa's link perpetuates and everything will get screwed up, big time.

 

For example, we might not know what practices are the best and most suatainable, but we do know some that are most definaitely bad for the ecosystem as a whole.... clam dredging, razor dredging, rock hopper gear on cold water corals etc, so we should work to getting them stopped.

 

If you need more info on these methods wurzel, you'll have to rely on scientific evidence I'm afraid. You say you don't know anything about them and you have no 1st hand evidence of the damage they do, so you'll have to trust some one else. Unfortunately most dredgers never actually see the damage they do so you can't really ask them if you don't trust the scientists, environmentalists etc. See how it works?

 

 

 

"I can't think of any mechanism that would stop it atm. Can you?"

 

ban such large vessels

Edited November 9, 2005 by spanner