Ian Burrett

History is being made here. I am agreeing with challenge LOL. If you forget RSA for a minute, The legislation was brought in as a precautionary approach to protect an officially vulnerable species. If you google "soupfin shark" another name of tope you will see vast populations have been seriously depleted particularly in New Zealand and the states. There is no doubt as management controls increase on the larger sharks then tope will rise in value and in ten years time we would be looking at ways to rebuild populations. As tope fishing is my hobby and career i really welcome this bold move by Defra in creating Europes first recreationally only species. Hopefully the Porgie, thresher and blue will follow

They use to say that about the Spurdog. The shark seem to do quite well for 400 million years without your interference Most sharks serve as top predators at the pinnacle of the marine food pyramid, and so play a critical role in ocean ecosystems. Directly or indirectly they regulate the natural balance of these ecosystems – at all levels – and so are an integral part of them. And because they usually hunt older, weaker or sick prey, they also help to keep the prey population in good condition – healthy and strong animals are more able to reproduce and pass on their genes. The effects of removing sharks from ocean ecosystems, although complex and rather unpredictable, are likely to be ecologically and economically damaging. For example, one study showed that the removal of tiger sharks from a tropical ecosystem resulted in a decline in tuna even though tuna were not important prey for the sharks. Instead of increasing in abundance as might have been expected, the tuna declined because the tiger sharks had been keeping other tuna predators check.

The growing Welsh and Engish Channel fishery.The latter sold their catch in France to avoid hassle at the UK ports This is a small victory for the sharks and a big victory for common sense There is no doubt they will go the same way as the spurdog if a precautionary measure isn't put in place The tope stocks have already reduced by 50 per cent in the last three years

Basically the targeted fishery for tope has been stopped but there will be a 45kg bycatch allowance. http://www.defra.gov.uk/marine/fisheries/c...tion/fstock.htm

Chris Maybe cover up is the wrong word. It just pees me off that a 70 mile patch of coastline is not included in any government assessments of Scotland's fish stocks. Its like it doesn't exist. And by coincidence it is the area that has shown the most sign of blatant overfishing. Your comment on tabloid stuff is quite true, The paper was deliberately reduced to a one pager. pm me your email address and i will send you the full paper which gives all the data detail, references etc.

They are still using 80cm nets in the Clyde which is producing 15 million discards. Ices constantly talks of misreporting as the numbers aren't adding up. Not wishing to be a cynic but there has only been one real time closure and that was the day after a friendly MSP asked the fisheries minister "..how many has there been?" Just a coincidence I am sure. A report has just been published by the Scottish fisheries scientists FRS and it covers the North Sea right round to the Clyde but no mention about the state of the stocks from the Clyde to the Solway. Just continues the cover up about the damage the langoustine Industry is causing.

Hi Wurzel It's a long time since i have had had verbal battles with yourself Are we going for the whole of Scotland? It really needs to be. See the pdf document "the forgotten sea on http://www.ssacn.org/ssacn-library/ssacn-papers ICES have said the Irish sea stocks are at the lowest observed levels and can't recover unless the Scottish MD stop the lucrative langoustine Industry. This just isn't going to happen so something has to be done. There are 20 once abundant species that can be considered locally extinct, rarely caught or just as juveniles. Even the sample tows struggled to catch more than one fish an hour in many areas A recent study showed the Clyde used to support 119 charter boats, there are now just three. The areas we would like to see as Angling Centres would be Lochs Sunnart and Etive and surrounding waters, to protect the spurs and common skate, The inner Clyde as the government evidence shows it is a nursery ground for cod Haddock and Whiting. and the Nursery areas of the Solway to help rebuild rays and flat fish populations. There is a great deal of support for these centres from static gear associations, who are sick of having the inshore grounds damaged by the scallop and prawn dredgers and having their gear towed away. They claim the cost of diesel is keeping the big boys inshore which is worsening the situation. Wurzel something has to change, I know you share a love of the sea, to see a patch i know so well sink to such levels is truly heart wrenching. What a heritage to leave our kids.

Hopefully we will get areas which ban all forms of destructive commercial practise and will allow species and habitats to recover. Call them NTZ.s MPA's. marine parks, SSMEI's or what ever else you like, but the main emphasis is on regeneration You often state you haven't seen a deterioration in your catches on the East coast. Check this out it may change your mind http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MaMCAAA...hl=en#PPA262,M1 I have regulars who often talk of the days they would be pestered by Spurdog in the Moray Firth. Places like the West coast of Scotland with its unique resident population of spurdog and common skate must be protected.

Mine says"... OOh good I'll try my new rod"

Sorry Chris I thought i had made it clear in the first paragraph. We are not in favour of the Golden mile in Scotland, because we don't favour blanket bans

Hi Glen I am not getting involved in the bass argument but i don't think for a minute the minister made his own mind up. The more i get into this angling politics the more i realise how true the comedy programme Yes Minister was. If we write to the fisheries minister in Scotland, the Marine directorate (Defra equivalent) intercept the letter/email and write the reply, the minister then just rubber stamps it.

Hi Jaffa Our position on the Golden Mile hasn’t changed. We believe that a blanket ban may work in some area but because of Scotland’s thousands of miles of inaccessible coastline, it would be far better to have Angling Centres in specific areas where there is already RSA activity and recreational species in need of protection. Ares like Oban for the skate and spurdog, The Solway for tope and rays and Scrabster and the North East for the Porbeagle The main aim is for the regeneration of stocks and habitats. It is thought MPA’s increase stocks 2-3fold in 5 years and there is a much needed boost to commercial fishermen as the fish move out onto the fringes We already have a local councils, and National heritage groups interested Regarding the political climate, all is dependant on the economic study being carries out. SSACN is on the Governments steering group and the results are due out later this year. The SNP are very good at taking the credit for the study but it was actually sanctioned by our old friend Mr Finnie. What I found most encouraging from the event and later debate is politicians from all parties were very supportive and accepted anglers hadn’t been given a fair crack of the whip and things need to change. John Scott (Con) Sea angling is, I believe, a subject that has been surprisingly overlooked by politicians Peter Peacock (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): “I call on the Government to work more closely with sea anglers, to ensure that their concerns are addressed.” John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD): “ We must make people aware of the economic importance of sea angling as part of the visitor experience.” Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): “The greatest concern is the loss of fish stocks, which is a problem that cannot be rectified easily. We must strike a balance between recreational and commercial fisheries.” Mike Russell (SNP) The Minister for Environment “The Government recognises that it should do what it can to help support and encourage recreational sea angling” Turning words in action is the biggest challenge

The extract below is part of the presentation made to the Scottish parliament yesterday and i must say was well recieved by all parties Unless fisheries management changes, fishing down the food chain will ensure there is no real future for either recreational or commercial fin fishermen in Scotland’s inshore waters. SSACN would like to propose the introduction of Angling Centres which will provide local solutions for local issues and help ensure the survival of sea angling communities. The No. 1 aim of “Angling centres” is to REGENERATE FISH STOCKS and HABITATS by banning destructive commercial practises. These could be within a greater Marine Protected Area. MPA’s often affect a 2-3 fold increase in stocks within 5 years. An Angling centre will benefit all species and habitats within its borders and will prevent the need for costly and SLOW species by species legislation. The theme of conserving the marine habitat will run right through the centre. Angling Centres will also be used as an, Educational Outreach and for Coaching and development. They would require a building with classrooms to cater for activities (perhaps a village hall for trial periods) We envisage • Open days with guest speakers offering tips and advice • tackle making sessions, best Practise in fish handling • Safety awareness RYA and VHF radio courses • Casting lessons • Educational marine conservation packages Successful centres could contain • Disabled access to angling hotspots • Bait freezers and drying rooms • Hire equipment • Web presence, Information boards • Artificial reefs • slipways and tractor launches and most important • A place for young “uns” to come and have a go A Weekly/Monthly magazines or web page could advise of best catches, anecdotes, Tales of the one that got away In fact a successful Angling centre will contain all the elements needed to create the full angling experience. It is important that the visitors to the Centre, whether local or tourist, feel they are part of the centre ie It’s their centre A successful centre will increase stock levels, participation & activity & therefore increase tourism leading to more jobs None of this is going to be easy. To succeed we need politicians who understand 'Best Value' share our vision and have the will to help make this happen. Angling Centres can only be achieved through all interested parties like local and national government, sea angling clubs, voluntary bodies, coastal forums etc etc working and pulling together.

It's the first time ever

Hi Barry Read more at http://www.ssacn.org/lifelines-event-in-holyrood/ and for the quotes of the day from other MSP's http://www.ssacn.org/lifelines-event-in-ho...-of-the-quotes/ It was the first time Sea Angling has ever been mentioned in the 8 year old Scottish parliament. It was great to hear all parties being so positive about it. We just have to keep the pressure on now, to turn words into action

Hi Jaffa We have got the SSACN holyrood event on tomorrow. We have an hour long discussion in one of the committee rooms and around twenty MSP''s or staffers have committed to attend and 25 Scottish or European organisations. Sea angling will then have an hour long debate in the chambers at 6 o'clock. See below Over 30 per cent of MSP's have signed the motion It has been interesting to see the range of organisations that have asked to attend including two static gear associations. They are both campaigning on the golden mile. Ironically we don't want it SSACN's position is we would rather have individual protected areas for a specific purpose, and money pumped into the region to develop tourism and jobs through angling centres. One of the groups that have asked to attend is seafish I was looking through their website particularly on a survey they have carrying out Ironically the biggest complaint from commercials was they weren't involved in management decisions. Civil servants have a lot to answer for Date of Lodging: 7 January 2008 - Short Title: Recreational Sea Angling S3M-01096 John Scott (Ayr) (Con): That the Parliament notes the economic and social importance of recreational sea angling to communities along the west coast and across Scotland; further notes that around 225,000 people participate in the sport annually with an average spend of £1,375 for boat anglers and £861 for shore anglers; recognises that most species of interest to sea anglers have limited commercial value and are returned alive to the sea, representing an excellent financial return for “Scotland plc”; affirms the extremely low environmental cost of recreational sea angling which is at the forefront of sustainable fishing and especially welcomes the Give Fish a Chance initiative from the Scottish Sea Angling Conservation Network, encouraging anglers to keep only those fish which have reached breeding size; regrets the substantial decline of the sport and supporting industries, notably on the Firth of Clyde, due to a loss of stocks with a number of species becoming extinct locally or reduced to the point where only juvenile specimens are now being caught; notes with concern the critically endangered status of key species, such as common skate, porbeagle and spurdog, which bring sea anglers to Scotland, and considers that work between the Government, sea angling bodies and other relevant agencies should continue to ensure the conservation of key species and the continued growth of sea angling in Scotland.

Its still happening in the Clyde It used to be 9 kgs of discard for every kilo of Prawns. Its not quite as bad now because they've already killed anything bigger than a sprat. ICES has said the COD, Haddock and Whiting stocks are at the lowest observed levels, two species of ray are now extinct and the Langoustine Industry has to stop if there's any chance of any Irish Sea recovery Check out http://www.ssacn.org/ssacn-library/ssacn-papers/ The "collapsing Clyde" and the "forgotten sea" They are both a good read

Try a search for Gulp Ther's been a few threads on the artificial baits

Hi Wurzel I just had a bit of a Guiness moment The main reason if i remember rightly through blured eyes was; An earlier post had said the Eu was looking into RSA catches and then Challenges made the post about 10 metre boats and RSA catches. The only reason they could be possibly be compared is because bad management has reduced Cod down to such low numbers; then to turn round and say "Welll you catch as many as us; is unbelievable" Across the North Sea there will be more discards this year then RSA will ever catch collectively in a lifetime. To make comparisons for a small 15 mile radius from Whitby is ludicrous You have to look at the whole picture and that's why i brought the discards in. I do believe the Whitby RSA folk are being too Insular. Yes there may be Cod of Whitby at the moment but who knows what's round the corner. I think you said in an earlier post, about it not being true that skippers had gone bust due to poor stocks. You try telling that to the 80 West coast skippers that have disappeared through the loss of Cod in the Clyde. People used to travel from Yorkshire to the Clyde because the Cod fishing was that good. Just ten years ago a 30 pound cod from the shore at Balcary was a possibility. All that's left is dabs. I am chuffed Glen and Paul have got themselves organised but i still believe they have to keep pushing rightly for their own patch as well as supporting RSA as a whole and i don't mean rod licenses and the golden mile They might be just glad of the support of others if the Cod disappear of Whitby

Commercials are having a laugh when they compare RSA catches to commercials. In 2003 28million 3-4 pound Haddock were discarded in the North Sea. That's more fish than every angler in the country collectively would catch in a lifetime not one year. Figures shown are for East Scotland The figures are mind blowing Multiply the figures on the left x 1000 and that's 400million Haddock just on the East coast of Scotland for 2001 Cod, Ices sub-area 1V, North Sea Discards for 2003 (Thousands of fish) age0 age1 age2 age3 1611 2275 2195 300 So 2,195,000 age 2 or 3 pound fish discarded in one sub-area in one year Even Big Cod might struggle to catch that many.

The Japs did the same to Kenya. They destroyed the Kenyan Tuna stocks for a bridge over Mtwapa creek and a few million in backhanders to the president.

I found a fascinating read about the History of the area at http://books.google.com/books?id=SaM9AAAAI...p2I4zs#PPA22,M1 Particularly the bottom of page 23. Some things never change

:lol:

Similar markings were found on harbour porpoise off the East coast 18 months ago. "Great white" said all the local papers. It turns out the huge sharky looking semi circular holes had been made by seagulls.