Hybrids

[Renrag39]

Another reason they are so popular apart from the above, is that they are also very fast growing, this combined with their inherent robustness makes them ideal for the farms in which they are 'created' due to far less losses and faster turnover.

 

Renrag

[watatoad]

Many thanks for that guys, I think I am safer staying on the rivers it seems so much simpler...hehehe

 

I would never get the hang of all the variations plus all the to me new type of tackle equipment and naturally it will save me a lot of money. Which from the look of fuel prices I may well need.

[Renrag39]

In fact, the rivers are just as, if not more complex. Ever wondered why there is so much variation in fin ray counts and lateral line scale counts? Its all past hybridisation.

 

You can't escape it that easily Rod! The mutants are everywhere, its the very essence of evolution and as beautiful and mind boggling as the vastness of the cosmos, with its irregularity and creativity displayed everywhere you look.

 

Renrag

[Dick Dastardly]

Ah of course the size limitation thing! All makes sense now.

[watatoad]

In fact, the rivers are just as, if not more complex. Ever wondered why there is so much variation in fin ray counts and lateral line scale counts? Its all past hybridisation.

 

You can't escape it that easily Rod! The mutants are everywhere, its the very essence of evolution and as beautiful and mind boggling as the vastness of the cosmos, with its irregularity and creativity displayed everywhere you look.

 

Renrag

 

I know a fair bit about that learned it gradually over many years but Goldfish what is going on...???...hehehe

[Alan Stubbs]

As for backcross / hybrids being infertile, the school of thought as a schoolboy in biology lessons was that a horse/donkey cross is infertile - and called an ass.

Or am I braying like one?

 

Budgie, don't even go there!!!!! :-D

[Steve Walker]

Another reason they are so popular apart from the above, is that they are also very fast growing, this combined with their inherent robustness makes them ideal for the farms in which they are 'created' due to far less losses and faster turnover.

 

The battery chickens of the angling world.

[Mark Wintle]

In fact, the rivers are just as, if not more complex. Ever wondered why there is so much variation in fin ray counts and lateral line scale counts? Its all past hybridisation.

 

You can't escape it that easily Rod! The mutants are everywhere, its the very essence of evolution and as beautiful and mind boggling as the vastness of the cosmos, with its irregularity and creativity displayed everywhere you look.

 

Renrag

 

There is much evidence that the wide ranges in text books for fin ray and lateral lines are generally wrong. Many of them have ranges much too wide and this suggests that they have included hybrids in their ranges. For example it is extremely rare to find true roach with other than say 42 or 43 scales on the lateral line yet the textbooks typically have a greater range of 40-46. I've seen crucian similarly quoted 27-34 when the lower end of that is brown goldfish (27-29) as crucians usually have 33-34 - the in between ones are usually hybrids. The concept of lots of back crossing with many mixed up and complex hybrids has been shown to be a myth perpetuated by those worried by what is actually the case and disproved by DNA testing. The fact is that roach and rudd have been separate species for 5 million years and show little sign of merging just yet!

 

There are mutants out there; mirror carp and the weird varieties of goldfish are good examples, I've seen a mirror dace as well. What is interesting is that these strange genes vanish when you have hybrids. One of my local waters was stocked with true crucians and mirror carp (no fully scaled at all) which cross bred to have fully scaled F1 carp x crucians.

[Dick Dastardly]

The whole world of hybridisation seems so full of contradiction and split opinion! Ive been told before that carp and Ide cant hybridise due to being different families but I have caught fish that I have been told are Ide/Crucian cross and could certainly believe it. Also seen /caught plenty of very strange ornemental/natural crosses at commercials.

[Renrag39]

Roach, rudd, bream etc will never 'merge'. I think they may well however diversify, either within their own genetics through natural mutation or with interbreeding, causing an evolutionary offshoot either way, or most likely with the help of both and the further liklihood is that they will live side by side with their ancestors fior some time before the 'new' breed either proves its worth and outlives/outadapts its ancestor or the ancestor itself proves more viable, with the 'new' breed dying off.

 

Hybrids as we commonly see them are all attempts at diversifying an existing species. The fact is that many are sterile, but there are those that are fertile and one day, this hybridisation, combined with a random genetic mutation 'may' produce a better/stronger or just plain 'different' species over time.

 

The problem for us is that in trying to understand evolution, sometimes, despite all attempts and controls, nature plays dirty and throws something else into the mix, some random and inexplicable mutation. I've seen it myself a few times breeding livebearers. One end of the spectrum frutrates and confuses me, the other constantly amazes me. There are no 'rules'.

 

Sorry for the ramble, I have no real scientific background but its possibly my favourite area of biological science because of its intrinsic complexity and mainly because it just blows my mind.

 

Renrag