still water barbel - depressing news.

[Guest pete falloon]

Alan

 

think again re. those tench in fast rivers. A mate from the Environment Agency gave me a magazine they produced about fishing a while back. John Wilson was part of a feature on the wensum, I forget the name of the weir pool, but right by the sill many tench to 5lb + were taken regularly. On a fast stretch of the Gt Ouse, downstream of a viaduct, tench of a similar size are also taken quite frequently.

 

I've also seen big carp hanging around in the fast flows of mill pools in both the Lea and the Ouse. Conversely, some of the bigger Ouse barbel seem to inhabit quite sluggish parts of the river, apart from spawning time.

 

So what are we supposed to do with these fish? Move them to what we have preconceived as an appropriate environment for them? Tell them they've got it all wrong

[Guest pete falloon]

Of course, once all this wonderful scientific information has been collected, it will then need to be looked at on moral grounds.

 

There's probably scientific evidence that humans can live and breed in a refuse dump, but that doesn't mean it's right that they do.

[Guest Ian Welch]

Originally posted by pete falloon:

There's probably scientific evidence that humans can live and breed in a refuse dump, but that doesn't mean it's right that they do.

 

Because of abstraction, sewage, fish farm and industrial effluent and agricultural run-off many rivers actually have a far inferior water quality to many stillwaters these days. I regularly monitor the DO of my local Kennet and throughout the summer many reaches are lower than in the adjoining lakes.

 

I am not saying that to support the introduction of barbel to stillwaters just to remind us all that what we need to fight for as much as anything are pure rivers in which all of our fish might thrive.

 

I trust we can all agree and unite on that one !

[Guest phil hackett]

Originally posted by phil hackett:

Originally posted by lyn:

In answer to one question. If someone can prove to me, scientifically that barbel thrive/breed in still waters then I may look at the whole thing again. I know or very much doubt that that will ever happen. At present all the evidence has said they can’t because they need running water & gravel to spawn in/on. I am hoping that this study will prove just that.

 

Lyn with respect, if this is the answer to the question I pose on the first page, well I have to say you’ve fudged the question. The question I asked of you and the BS, "Is your stance against barbel being stocked in stillwater based on a moral or scientific stance?"

 

In the above statement you say, “At present all the evidence has said they can’t because they need running water & gravel to spawn in/on.” What is this evidence, who carried it out, what scientific validation/peer review was done on it, which journals did it appear in and when?

 

Lyn I’m not being pedantic for pedantic’s sake, these question have to be answered when/if evidence is presented to the EA to support the above claim. Remember that the EA officials are scientists first and Anglers second. Therefore they need Scientific PROOF that has been replicated many times over.

 

Frankly speaking, to base you evidence as your last sentence suggests would be torn to pieces in the first 5 minutes by these guys on the lack of data and replication.

 

So I ask again of you and the BS the question I asked above "Is your stance against barbel being stocked in stillwater based on a moral or scientific stance?"

I'm still waiting for a reply to this question Barbel Society & Lyn!

[Guest trent.barbeler]

Ian,

 

No need to apologise to me old lad.

My comments concerning "charlatans" were made as a critisism not a request for an apology but seeing as you offered, I accept.

 

A great deal seems to being made about the need for a scientific survey with regards to stocking barbel into stillwaters. I am sure that such a survey would be welcomed by some of those who have a opinion on this issue.

 

I myself would be interested to read the findings of any such undertaking.

 

But, that is as far as I would be prepared to go. Reading is one thing, doing is another. My personal plain fact is; It would not matter one jot what such evidence brought forth either way to me. Mine is a decision of conscience and NOT science nor will it ever be.

 

Hang me high if you like, but I DONT agree with stocking barbel into stillwaters and I NEVER will.

 

However, and keep the rope handy, I feel that it is about time that I gave my personal perceptions of this situation.

 

I never have and never will, start sticking knives into the backs of those anglers who choose to fish for barbel in a stillwater environment. If anglers choose to fish at Ians venue or anywhere else for that matter, good luck to em. Who the hell are any of us to tell our brother anglers where to fish and what for? Not me people thats for sure.

Aint going down that road.

 

Also, I'll give a gold clock to anyone that has ever heard me criticise any commercial fishery owner irrespective of what they do or dont stock in their waters. At the end of the day, whats the point? It is also in my personal opinion, hypercritical to slant fishery owners on commercial reasons for stocking this and that. Of course its all about money but arn't we all at the end of the day. In reality, do we have any choice?

 

Look at it this way; If I was the manager of a fishery I would not stock certain species in that environment because of my morals. No doubt because of my morals I would not be in that sort of employment for long. As in all forms of public entertainment; bums on seats is what it is all about. Like it or not, thats the reality.

 

How many of you out there would seriously risk your families well being because of a moral view you hold over a species of fish. We are all lucky, because we can take the high moral ground over certain things that will never effect our personal lives. The commercial fishery owner does not have that luxury. The plain fact is; A lot of the commercial fisheries have a growing market from their increacing customers who are starting to expect to have barbel available when they go fishing. If they are not, then the other guy who does at the fishery up the road grabs the business.

Come on now, be honest, if you were in their position what would you do?

 

So, lets change tack for a while and look at another reason for the demand for barbel in stillwaters. It has been stated that some anglers dont know how to fish in a river environment. If that it true then it is a sad reflection of angling today. Also, it has been implied that the fishing at the commercial fishery is very easy. Probably so but I would find no challenge in easy one after another such fishing. Yes, I personally do catch a lot of wild river barbel and sometimes it IS easy fishing but lets not forget, some of us have vast experience but others do not.

 

Well, I dont know about you but I think it high time that we started to educate some of the less experienced amongst us. Perhaps if we did, more anglers would come to the riverbank and enjoy the breathtaking fishing to be had there. Stillwater barbel? Not a patch on the real thing!

 

Time to give some positive help methinks. Bait Thread? You ain't seen nothin yet!

 

I'll be back!

[Guest Graham E]

Trent B you make some interesting points, but I cannot agree with some of them.

 

Mans buggering with nature for his own selfish means has a habit of working against him in the long run. Granted, like shareholders many commercial water owners expect the quick fix return on investment.

Don't be mistaken into thinking there is an element of concern there. It's money. And it's results will be there after they have moved onto the next Get rich quick scheme....True anglers will pay the price in terms of Joe Publics perception of our "sport"

In RMC's case I believe it could rebound on them, simply because they WERE viewed as an example of "good practice" with long term goals. A number of my friends will not join RMC this year.

 

The other disservice they will do is to reduce the number of anglers that will be long term in the sport. "Done it been there, got the t shirt", all at one location.

Do you forget the joy of the challenge to seek out and catch your first river barbel and the sense of achievement.

Now it's method feeder and.....

roach,carp,tench,bream,perch,chub, barbel etc.and not having to move a yard along the bank of manicured lawns. Boredom will set in against the opportunities available for the youngsters. And your next peg angler .... roach,tench, perch, barbel.....

The future for angling is in the challenge, not just the catching.

[Guest Barbus maximus]

Trouble is angling is a dying sport Graham E, few juniors coming in, lots of others deserting. I believe the commercial fisheries are helping to bring people into the sport and that has to be for the good. It is then up to us "true" anglers to convert them to other styles of fishing.

 

Given the massive numbers fishing Makins and cudmore and the like I think more people fish for stillwater barbel than river barbel already! Stopping fishing places like RMC which let's face it STILL support river barbelling despite what they have done will backfire. Less people fishing their rivers equals less income for their river fisheries equals less incentive for them to improve their rivers more incentive for them to put more effort into the commercial stillwaters which earn them their money. Think on !! I still sympathise as they are only doing thier job.

[Guest Graham E]

BM

I probably didn't put my case very well.

And I certainly didn't mean that only true anglers fish rivers. Personally I find the large reservoirs are daunting, and Iv'e been fishing for loads of years!

 

Having teenagers, I know they bore very quickly once they get the hang of things. With an overloaded pit and easy fishing they miss out on the challenges that will inspire them to learn more to beat the odds.

 

A monkey could buy the ready made end tackle on offer and catch as well as the next gorilla. Under the rod tip if you like. Hardly inspiring is it!

 

From fishing the overstocked commercial waters (and I mean that, not the challenging ones like Steves)and catching all available species they will not move onto the new horizons of fishing.

 

I would rather have less, but committed anglers that care about the future and the environment than lots of robots.

[Guest trent.barbeler]

Graham,

 

As a matter of fact, I agree with everything you say.

What I pointed out was the reality of the situation sad though it may be.

Commercial fisheries are going from strength to strength mostly because there IS a demand for them.

Match,pleasure and specimen anglers fish at the commercial type fishery.

 

I remember just recently when a group of anglers from this site wanted to have a get together it was the commercial type fishery that was looked at was it not.

 

The bag up type fishery IS popular and will continue to be so in the future.

 

Also, to make matters either good or bad depending on your outlook, barbel in stillwaters is going to be even more popular.

 

The writings on the wall.

 

Those like myself are going to have to accept that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better if indeed they do at all.

 

I suppose its being so cheerful that keeps me going!

[Guest Alan Pearce]

Nick and Pete, of course I'm aware of tench in our fast flowing rivers, caught them myself. I was just using the tench as a species related in the norm to still waters.

 

Graham I agree 100% with what you say, and repeat, why should man play God with nature and evolution, there is no need.

 

Ian, we should be encouraging more anglers to fish the rivers but by stocking 'river' species into still waters will have the opposite effect. Why not instead look to increase the barbel population in some stretches of river thereby making it easier for theless experienced angler, whilst at the same time offering them 'the river experience'. Would that not prove a better idea.

 

Most of the club and match anglers I know are not particularly interested in what species they catch providing they get plenty in their alloted five hour time span. They appear more concerned that a fishery for their use has equal swims, sorry pegs and rules that prevent one angler having any advantage over the next.

 

I know a lot of what is said on this subject is based on emotion, but is that not what the essence of fishing is about and something that should be encouraged to prevent its degredation.

 

Alan.