still water barbel - depressing news.

[Guest pete falloon]

Again I would urge the BS and RMC to attempt to become involved with research projects.

 

All I have found so far is:

http://www.herts.ac.uk/natsci/Env/StaffPag...ages/G_Copp.htm Gordon Copp

Conservation of the barbel Barbus barbus: behaviour, life

history, and recruitment (doctoral research and EC-funded

post-doctoral research)

 

The EA admit that there is not enough evidence about this issue, in some of the evidence given to the Salmon & freshwater fisheries review:

http://www.maff.gov.uk/fish/salmon/evidenc...ce/ea981116.htm http://www.maff.gov.uk/fish/salmon/evidenc...ce/evidence.htm (more info) http://www.maff.gov.uk/fish/salmon/backgrnd.htm (full info)

 

Q10. What is your view of stocking river fish, such as barbel, in still waters?

 

22. Dr Clarke emphasised that any decision on such stocking should take account of the effects on the donor river and the likelihood of the fish surviving in

the stillwaters. He added that the Agency's policy on this issue was currently under review.

 

23. On a separate issue Dr Clarke noted that barbel derived from the Agency's fish farm at Calverton undertook a period of acclimatisation before being

introduced into rivers.

 

Supplementary: Is there any evidence that barbel do not breed in stillwaters? could brown trout breed in stillwaters?

 

24. Mr Taylor noted this was a difficult question, since some barbel were introduced via flood plains. However, he did not rule out the possibility that

barbel could breed in stillwaters. Dr Clarke added that brown trout could breed in stillwater and he stated that the Agency was currently reviewing the

evidence on coarse fish breeding in stillwaters.

 

 

Get on the case!

[Guest Ian Welch]

As most of you know I am a fishery biologist by training and I am happy to be involved in research in this area. The data from our Burghfield fish will be fully available to the BS, EA or any other interested party.

 

This topic has aroused a passionate response from a couple of posters here and there is nothing wrong with that; I too am passionate about my sport. But to criticise without sufficient facts to support a case is wrong, we do not yet know enough about the subject to fully judge either way.

 

If the evidence shows that my young stillwater barbel do not do flourish in their new environment I will be the first to stop stocking the species into stillwater, to discourage those anglers who wish us to introduce them and to use the influence I have within the commercial coarse fishery sector to persuade others to do likewise.

 

To change tack slightly and to introduce a different dimension to the argument I have recently been offered a small number of larger barbel, 4 -7lb, to introduce to a stillwater.

 

These barbel were bred in captivity by a highly respected source and they have spent all of their lives in ponds and have been used as broodstock for the spawning of countless millions of young barbel.

 

These barbel have never seen a river in their lives and are no longer required for breeding purposes. To introduce them to a river would almost certainly lead to their death but to introduce them to a stillwater would mean their probable survival and growth.

 

Interesting dilemma...

 

[This message has been edited by Ian Welch (edited 11 May 2001).]

 

[This message has been edited by Ian Welch (edited 11 May 2001).]

[Guest Alan Pearce]

Ian why do you think these larger barbel if introduced into a river would not survive? I know of seven barbel out of a batch of nine that were grown on in a garden pond from 1992 until there release into a river in '97. (two died in the pond). It is beleived these fish spawned in 1999.

These are Calverton barbel and part of a consignment of 6" fish that went into the Suffolk Stour.

 

Alan.

[Guest Ian Welch]

The fish may well survive in a river, Alan although I note that Calverton 'train' their young barbel to swim against a current in channels before stocking them out in a natural river environment.

 

The point I was trying to get people to think about is that it is apparently OK to stock fish that have lived their lives in stillwaters into rivers; but patently not OK to do the reverse....

 

As I said in in an earlier post I have an open mind on this entire subject, I am a scientist and will wait until I have seen sufficient evidence one way or the other. I shall then act accordingly.

 

I am disturbed that a number of people (on BOTH sides of the argument) have made their minds up on the matter without sufficient evidence to support their theories; charlatans!

[Guest STEVE POPE]

Ian,

 

I know we have spoken, but the more you say the more disturbed I am becoming.

 

You really do seem to have missed the point on this issue.

 

I am off to our conference now, but this afternoon we will be having a committee meeting where this topic will be discussed fully.

[Guest Graham E]

So I guess from your earlier post Ian that this charleton,(non scientist)assumes that barbel do not adapt to still waters as their natural swimming skills are not utilised?

[Guest trent.barbeler]

Ian,

 

Charlatans? You pressume to much if you think that those with opinions on this issue are mere quacks.

 

Sorry old lad, but one does not fortunately need to be qualified in fisheries to give ones opinion.

 

I have studied fisheries and fish farming but my stance is almost entirely based on my moral opinion NOT fisheries science.

 

The plain fact is as you know, there is none available and to arrive at the day when there is, an awful lot of money will have to be spent before it is.

 

Although I am NOT a member of the BS myself, I still have serious doubts if the BS will ultimately become involved with your stillwater barbel project. I would have thought that their fundimental existence would prevent such a thing. I may be wrong, but we shall see.

 

On the other hand Ian, you have a business to run. Ultimately, whilst you are running a fishery your success is dependant on the amount of happy customers you enjoy.

 

If stocking barbel into stillwaters under your control is part of your business strategy then so be it. Even charlatans like us have to make a living ourselves do we not.

[Guest Alan Pearce]

The fact that Calverton deem it nessasary to teach/condition barbel to swim and cope with a rivers current I think says it all. Barbel are a fish of swift flowing rivers, why not just leave them this way.

 

Why must man meddle with the way of nature? Shurely fishing as a sport is above such things.

 

What next? Oh how about dumping loads of tench in our fast flowing rivers.

 

And what about respect for our fish species, do you think barbel are suitable as match fodder?

 

I was going to purchase an RMC ticket this season to chub fish the Lea but after hearing about their stocking barbel into still water, I shan't as there is no way my money is going to be used to support this poor practice and I hope others follow suite, as I'm sure many will.

 

All this tosh about science, who do you think you are kidding, and what gives the right to a few commercial fishery owners to change what thousands of years of evolution has given us. All for the sake of a few quid.

 

Anyway I'm off to catch some blue orfe, a sterlet or two or maybe a carp/pike hybrid if I'm lucky.

 

Alan.

[Guest NickInTheNorth]

Careful Alan

 

My largest ever Tench of 8lb 6oz came from a river which for most of its length can only be described as fast flowing.

 

I caught it just below Beningborough on the Yorkshire Ouse. It came from my favorite barbel swim, from where I have had barbel of 10 lb 2 oz and 12lb 4oz.

 

What price stillwater barbel, or tench from fast flowing rivers now?

 

regards

 

Nick

 

Let's all concentrate on the common problems and not argue amongst ourselves.

[Guest Ian Welch]

Originally posted by trent.barbeler:

Sorry old lad, but one does not fortunately need to be qualified in fisheries to give ones opinion.

 

Sincere apologies trent, I did not mean to imply that people were not entitled to an opinion - of course they are!

 

I am just a little frustrated at some who claim their arguments have scientific backing when they do not and at others who have made their minds up and would not be swayed from their viewpoint even if evidence to the contrary were to emerge.

 

This goes for BOTH sides of the argument I hasten to add - Indeed, I have heard more implausible claims from the out and out commercial stillwater barbel fishery owners than from anyone, let's get some science behind us to refute THOSE claims!

 

I said previously that I have a totally open mind on the whole situation, if stillwater barbel are proven not to do well than I will be the first to persuade the anglers who request them in my waters of this. I cannot be more open or impartial than that.

 

I was sorry to read that Alan will not now be fishing Fishers Green. To redress the balance and promote the development and improvement of river barbel fisheries over commercial stillwater ones I need more people fishing my rivers Alan, not less !