How Many Fish Can The North Sea Sustain?

[JB]

Hello, Wurzel!

I can't really comment about livers, hearts, lymph glands etc, as I don't gut anymore. However, I will ask my crew about this. Certainly it has not been commented upon.

 

It's time you applied to the EU for a grant for a "big set" - for safety reasons, of course, because you are often out of VHF range. Then we could get a yarn occasionally!

 

Good fishing to you,

JB

[Jaffa]

John, I hear what your saying about the condition of the cod in your area, and can see no reason to disagree with you that they finding it hard to get enough food. The reports of more worms in cod also strikes me as important; as i understand it , it would suggest a change in diet/foraging areas .

 

I also suspect your right and its the lack of sandeel that is the key (it obviously varies from area to area, but its fairly normal for cod to be coughing up sandeel when caught off here (east coast of scotland) and its my belief they are a very important component of the cods diet, at least around here.....

 

Its got to be open to debate as to if finding a cod stuffed full of some other food, means its doing well. I keep thinking about the RSPB reports of whole seabird colonies (that would normally feed on sandeel) having gob fulls of pipefish and yet experincing catastrophic total breeding failures. (FWIW I think the RSPB are way ahead of most of us on their understanding of the sandeel issue). ( btw If memory serves me right a few AN regulars have reported unusual numbers of pipefish in some areas).

 

Where I disagree with you is on the idea that fishing could have brought sandeel numbers so low. If you go down a level, to the zooplankton species that sandeel depend on , and see the massive changes happening there it all gets a bit alarming. Check out the reports from the Continuous Plankton Recorder (imho one of the UKs greatest gifts to the world )

 

 

Chris

Edited October 26, 2005 by Jaffa

[Stoaty]

It would be interesting to know the age of some of the larger cod caught from our boat. The lack of big cod in the North Sea could be due to poor nutrition and consequent slow growth. This belief is backed up by a friend of mine who is a professional filleter, and has been doing this job for 30 years. He says a lot of the cod from our part of the sea are “slinks”; and nowadays there are more cod fillets-per-stone of each graded size than there used to be. From time to time, due to the lack of local cod, they have to obtain cod from the Shetlands. These fish weigh out the same as the Whitby- landed fish used to do.

 

Down here in the thames/medway estuaries. The whelks have been hammered by commercial boats. Not a problem you might think. But this in turn has led to a massive collapse of the population of hermit crabs who need their shells to survive. They are extremly hard to collect for bait these days. I believe the cod come in to feed on the small whiting and crab that are usually here this time of year. This year there are a lot of very skinny whiting and they are very hungry. The codling I have seen so far are small (very small) and skinny as well. these small codling would be feeding on crab and worms and there is not much crab about for them. The habitat is easily changed. For fear of being hung on another thread I will say this quietly. We have large shoals of small bass about 10" long around here. They are here all year round and I believe they may be eating the other species out of house and home. I believe that the demise of the eel could well be due to the huge numbers of small bass that are a long way up the medway and thames eating all the elvers along with the flounder, dab, sole, mullet and shad. The bass nursery areas here have worked very well. but have we done this to the detriment of other species.

Edited October 26, 2005 by Stoaty

[wurzel]

Hello Jaffa,

the worms I mention are thr parasite worms in the flesh, not lug worms in the stomach.

 

It's not so common to find sand eels in cod here, only on the offshore banks , and then often only for a short time during late spring early summer, and they tend to be only codling. during the winter the cod do gorge on the sprats and herring this can last for 3 months or more, there are no shortage of sprats or herring. I would have thought they would have a simula food value as sand eels.

[Jaffa]

Hello Jaffa,

the worms I mention are thr parasite worms in the flesh, not lug worms in the stomach.

 

It's not so common to find sand eels in cod here, only on the offshore banks , and then often only for a short time during late spring early summer, and they tend to be only codling. during the winter the cod do gorge on the sprats and herring this can last for 3 months or more, there are no shortage of sprats or herring. I would have thought they would have a simula food value as sand eels.

 

Check out the lifecycle of the parasite worms in the flesh and you'll see what i mean.

 

I would reckon your right on the sandeel/sprat food value, but what do we know about the energy expended to actually catch and eat one or the other? Got any thoughts?

[wurzel]

hello stoaty,

Welks do seem to have declined, not so sure they were hammered,

I disagree about the hermits, I have not noticed any less hermit crab, there are areas where we don't set tramel nets for the sole because the hermits smother the fish and nible them to bits.

I do agree that any small codling that turn up will have to compete with the large amount of small bass ,

 

QUOTE

I would reckon your right on the sandeel/sprat food value, but what do we know about the energy expended to actually catch and eat one or the other? Got any thoughts?

 

The same, just open wide and swim into the shoal, although I heard some where that predatory fish can't survive in the middle of a large shoal of sprats , so they just nible the edges.

[A Norfolk Boy]

There's some thought provoking comments on here. I particularly agree with Leon's comments about habitat. I personally think that changing sea temperatures will have an effect. Nature does respond to changes but it is the rate of change that is important. Also interested in Wurzels comments about starving fish; I understand the sandeel catch is only catch 30% of the quota. Incidentally, it would appear that the Norfolk crab fisheries are doing well; the fishermen saying that there is no longer the same competition from cod for food, or as food.

 

The fact is, commercial and recreational fishermen want the same outcome. The British government can only influence, not dicate fisheries policy. If other countries are only interested in their own self serving objectives, then we are somewhat hobbled in any attempt to fix the situation.

[JB]

John, I hear what your saying about the condition of the cod in your area, and can see no reason to disagree with you that they finding it hard to get enough food. The reports of more worms in cod also strikes me as important; as i understand it , it would suggest a change in diet/foraging areas .

 

I also suspect your right and its the lack of sandeel that is the key (it obviously varies from area to area, but its fairly normal for cod to be coughing up sandeel when caught off here (east coast of scotland) and its my belief they are a very important component of the cods diet, at least around here.....

 

Its got to be open to debate as to if finding a cod stuffed full of some other food, means its doing well. I keep thinking about the RSPB reports of whole seabird colonies (that would normally feed on sandeel) having gob fulls of pipefish and yet experincing catastrophic total breeding failures. (FWIW I think the RSPB are way ahead of most of us on their understanding of the sandeel issue). ( btw If memory serves me right a few AN regulars have reported unusual numbers of pipefish in some areas).

 

Where I disagree with you is on the idea that fishing could have brought sandeel numbers so low. If you go down a level, to the zooplankton species that sandeel depend on , and see the massive changes happening there it all gets a bit alarming. Check out the reports from the Continuous Plankton Recorder (imho one of the UKs greatest gifts to the world )

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

I see your point and agree with you that the collapse of sandeel stocks is not completely due to industrial fishing. However, the lack of zooplankton plus industrial fishing has hit the sandeels very hard. If you agree with that, it follows that the lack of sandeels has put pressure further up the food chain – and back down again. I may be stating it too simply, but just as the shortage of zooplankton affects sandeel stocks, the intensive industrial sandeel fishing affects predatory fish stocks. I still maintain that industrial feed fishing and food fishing occurring within the same large area, is a recipe for disaster for predatory fish.

 

As I understand it, the UK does very little industrial sandeel fishing. I think there is a small operation in the Shetlands. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) Over the years, the UK has earned very little from the sandeel fishery, yet the impact of this fishery has undoubtedly had a major effect on our white fish industry and recreational angling. This is yet another example of our politicians letting the EU shaft us. But who is getting the blame for poor white fish stocks - the EU for bad management? Or the UK commercial fisherman for trying to do his job? The lack of cod in the North Sea has changed, but not monetarily affected, my business, so I’m not sticking up for the commercial fisherman for my benefit. I simply hate injustice.

 

My New Zealand-born partner, Michele, doesn’t fish. However, she shows great interest in all aspects of the job, from the welfare of the anglers themselves to the fish and to the marine environment. Michele cannot understand how any government of an island – given that ours is the only major country in the EU completely surrounded by water - could give away all its fishing grounds to be run by the EU, which does not have our interests at heart. It puzzles her that the North Sea is divided up for ownership of the oil, and we have a large share of it, yet not for fishing rights.

 

I have visited New Zealand several times with Michele. During the total of five months we have stayed there, we spent a lot of time speaking to anglers and commercial fishermen alike. I have also been off on both recreational and commercial boats. I can only marvel at what they have done with their recreational sea angling and commercial fishing. There is only one problem that I am aware of, and that relates to the quota system. Although it is a very good system, and works well, the quota itself has an extremely high monetary value. Consequently, it is very difficult for a young man starting in the industry to buy quota, as the large companies hold most of it. As fishermen retired from the job, the companies bought up their quotas at a high price. Now they rent the quota out to other fishermen, at somewhere between 50% and 75% of the value of the fish caught. But as for fish, everyone – both commercial and recreational fishermen – agree that there is plenty of it.

 

The New Zealand example of looking after its seas and fish stocks properly shows what a country can do when it has the interests of its people at heart. By the way, if you haven’t already read it, check out Leon’s posting of an interview with Doug Kidd, Fisheries Minister of New Zealand 1992-1998. http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/forums/index.p...indpost&p=93972

 

Unfortunately apathetic politicians and an unworkable CFP is what we are stuck with!

 

JOHN BRENNAN

Edited October 27, 2005 by John and Michele

[Guest binatone]

Hi john and Michele.

Hope that you are keeping well? Your season must be shortly coming to an end now?

Fist of all I will say thank you for taking up the subject of this thread. I have brought this subject up a couple of times but with out the desired effect. Maybe it’s because I am in the commercial sector or maybe it’s that I have not the communication skills of you and Michele? I think, as most will, the latter.

Its great reading (this thread) and very interesting to read yours and other views on the state of our sea.

I have also witnessed a lot of the changes that have been stated. We like you travel great distances around the North Sea and we like you have our meter on at all times.

Thank god we don’t use the old paper meters anymore as even if we where to turn them over (the paper that is) we would fined it a total waste of the rain forest for what we where marking.

We have witnessed in the dogger bank and silver pit areas similar feeding comparisons to you, fish stuffed with small crab, fish full of small Dover soul, but its not often we get a haul anymore where you see the sand eels spewing out of the cod as the net is coming up.

I know there are still pockets of feed inside; I only have to walk along the cliff top to see the sea birds diving and chasing the feed.

I believe we have a connection as we both know Andy straw? He tells me that he comes of fishing with you occasionally in the summer? I have had the good fortune of knowing Andy for quite a few years and have been fishing with him on several occasions.

When I have been fishing with him he will spend hours scouring up and down the coast looking for signs of feed before he starts fishing, he tells me that although there is still feed in the water, its not as heavy as it once was, but he does say that the last few years he has had some if knot the best inshore fishing yet.

What’s he like when he comes with you? Does he catch much? Does he blame the skipper if he doesn’t?

I am just glad he never became a full time commercial fisherman when he had the chance I think there would have been a lot less fish on this stretch of the coast than there is today.

Ok will have a read through the rest of the threads now I have the chance. Again thanks.

[Leon Roskilly]

My New Zealand-born partner, Michele, doesn’t fish. However, she shows great interest in all aspects of the job, from the welfare of the anglers themselves to the fish and to the marine environment. Michele cannot understand how any government of an island – given that ours is the only major country in the EU completely surrounded by water - could give away all its fishing grounds to be run by the EU, which does not have our interests at heart. It puzzles her that the North Sea is divided up for ownership of the oil, and we have a large share of it, yet not for fishing rights.

 

 

If you are only interested in fishing, then it does seem stupid.

 

But if fishing is just a small part of your economy and by using that as a bargaining chip, you get a better deal for many other people, in many other industries, then although fishermen will never agree with it, and the fishing press will only ever consider that part of the story, negotiating away some areas in fisheries control for the sake of greater national interest is on balance very worthwhile.

 

The other thing that worries me is that fishermen are so fixated on withdrawing from the CFP (which is never going to happen) they can't get face the reality of working for what needs to be done to make the best of it. As soon as things don't go their way, it's 'we have to get out of the CFP' and they go back to the end of the queue whilst others play for the rewards.

 

When I was training as a glider pilot, I was told that the biggest cause of fatal accidents was a pilot who refused to confront the reality of their situation. Trapped in a rock strewn valley, they would fly around hunting for a thermal that might get them height to get our, rather than concentrating their efforts in finding the smoothest bit of ground, and how they could make the best possible landing amongst rocks, until it was all far too late.

 

Something I wrote to someone else recently:

 

Did Ted Heath do wrong by selling out the fishing industry to the EU?

 

From the perspective of the UK fishing industry, yes that was very bad.

 

But many other industries and jobs have benefitted from the bargaining that that was part of.

 

An independent report into the Scottish fishing industry concludes:

 

"8. Many Scottish fishermen have told us they would like the UK to withdraw from the CFP.

 

We see no prospect of this without the UK trying to renegotiate the terms of its Treaty of Accession.

 

It is unlikely that new terms for remaining in the EU could be negotiated or that they would allow withdrawal from a policy that all other member states accept.

 

Withdrawal altogether from the EU would have major and damaging consequences for the Scottish economy (e.g., it would impact on the 60% of Scotland’s manufactured exports that go to the EU, it would deter inward investment. and the substantial aid that Scotland receives from the EU Structural Funds would no longer be available).

 

Withdrawal would have to be followed by negotiations with the EU on behalf of the member states with whom Scotland has traditionally shared fisheries as well as with countries outside the EU such as Norway, Iceland and the Faroe Islands.

 

Even for fishermen, it is doubtful this would lead to any better situation than currently exists under the CFP."

 

(see http://www.royalsoced.org.uk/enquiries/sco...eries/index.htm )

 

 

In the Prime Ministers Strategy Unit Net Benefits report (http://www.strategy.gov.uk/downloads/su/fish/pdf/NetBenefits.pdf ) it states:

 

"The EU contains the most complex fisheries in the

world, in terms of: the number and mixes of species;

the number of countries sharing stocks; and the

density of coastal communities with fishing heritages

and interests.

 

The UK has no choice but to manage its stocks

with European partners, as we share many of the

same waters and stocks. International experience

shows that multi-jurisdictional fisheries are

intrinsically hard to manage, and the difficulties

with the CFP are not unique."

 

"• It is a biological reality that the UK will always need

to manage its fish stocks in co-operation with other

countries. However, multi-jurisdictional fisheries

management is intrinsically difficult, and there is no

fully successful example anywhere it the world.

The EU’s legal structures provide a good

institutional basis for multi-jurisdictional

management, exemplified by its global leadership

in outlawing damaging fisheries subsidies by 2004.

However, the current system is too centralised and

poorly resourced to undertake the complex

management tasks needed to ensure sustainability."

 

"Pulling out of the CFP would allow the UK to control

activities within British Fishery Limits, but the UK

would have no influence on what happens on the

other side of the line. The UK’s international

commitments, including the straddling stocks

agreement and UNCLOS, require us to enter into

co-operation with other coastal states to conserve

joint stocks. Without the CFP the UK would have to

enter into a complex series of bilateral and

multilateral agreements with other coastal states on

all key demersal and pelagic stocks. There is no

guarantee that such arrangements would be any

more beneficial to the UK than at present, or that

they would be effective in conserving stocks. These

agreements would each require separate negotiation

of allocation keys, voting rules and enforcement

mechanisms. The experience of blue whiting would

seem to suggest that leaving the CFP and tearing up

the agreements already in place would at the very

least be damaging to the conservation of fisheries

resources in the short and medium term."

 

"There is a strong view expressed by some in the UK

industry in the Strategy Unit consultation that leaving

the CFP would be the best course of action to ensure

the sustainability of UK stocks. The evidence

suggests, however, that ‘national control’ is not a

solution to the problems facing the UK fishing

industry. Given the strengths of the reformed CFP

system, this report concludes that the best use of the

Government’s resources is in seeking to continue to

reform the current EU management system so that it

at least matches best international practice, and in

the future develops innovative approaches to the EU’s

specific management problems."

 

 

There is a lot said in Net Benefits about the CFP, much of it damning, but it clearly states that pulling out would be the bigger disaster, and that staying in and playing our part in fixing the problems is the only sensible course of action, rather than to waste years of effort, better spent, in trying to negotiate our way into deeper problems.

 

 

Yes, the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) has failed miserably, mostly it has to be said because the individual governments have been too cowardly to stand up against their own fishermen and take the scientific advice offered to them by ICES ( http://www.ices.dk/indexfla.asp ).

 

 

But the thing to remember is that fish don't know where the political boundaries are in the sea, and swim happily from one country's waters to anothers.

 

(Whereas Iceland has 20 species that need to be managed internationally, the UK has 80!)

 

Even if we were out of the CFP, we would still have to negotiate how much we could take of stocks whilst they are in 'our' waters, if we didn't want them all wiped out before they came into our waters.

 

And we would be negotiating as a small lone voice against the combined voice of all the other European nations.

 

And our boats would probably not be able to fish past the median line, in European waters where some of the best fishing grounds are.

 

So, all in all it might be better to stay in, have a voice as one of many partners and able to influence policy, rather than to sit outside.

 

(A look at the map will show why Iceland, New Zealand and Norway etc can do things differently!)

 

But on the bright side, there does seem to be a recognition that the CFP has failed and that things need to change. Have a look at: http://europa.eu.int/comm/fisheries/policy_en.htm

and http://europa.eu.int/comm/fisheries/whatsnew/new_en.htm

 

Tight Lines - leon

Edited October 27, 2005 by Leon Roskilly