Sayings and How They Came About

[Peggy Burke]

Peggy, what an enjoyable and informative way to start the day. Thanks for taking the time.

 

Thanks Jan. I think these sayings are fascinating, particularly because there are so many theories as to where they've come from. Another one I like is 'a cock and bull story'.

 

The excerpt below shows just how difficult is to say where a particular saying came from.

 

A cock and bull story

 

Meaning

 

A fanciful and unbelievable tale.

 

Origin

 

It is widely reported that the phrase originated at Stony Stratford ('the jewel of Milton Keynes'), Buckinghamshire, England. Visitors to Milton Keynes might feel the bar for 'jewel' status is set rather low in that region, although Stony Stratford is indeed a rather pleasant town.

 

Coaches between London and Birmingham changed horses in the town at two of the main coaching inns - the Cock and the Bull. The banter of the rival groups of travellers, from England's two largest cities, resulted in exaggerated and fanciful stories. The story is plausible but there's no real evidence to support it, although the two hostelries did, and still do, exist.

 

Don't mentioned this in Stony Stratford if you want to get out alive, but it's more likely that the phrase comes from old folk tales that featured magical animals. The French term "coq-a-l'ane" has the same meaning. This was later taken up in Scots as "cockalayne", again with the same meaning.

 

The first citation in English is from Robert Burton's The anatomy of melancholy, 1621:

 

"Some mens whole delight is to talk of a Cock and Bull over a pot."

 

This lends support to the view that the stories were about cocks and bulls, i.e. fanciful tales, rather than stories told in the Cock or the Bull. The early date doesn't rule out the coaching inn story though, as they were both in business prior to 1651.

 

One of the richest sources of English colourful sayings come from The Bard himself and I don't think even Snopes would dispute these

[Newt]

I didn't need Snopes for those two Chris.

 

Mat - the women weren't wives. Ladies of the evening spent time on board when they were in port and when one got herself in a family way, there was no way to ID the father for sure so they used the name of one of the big deck guns (all were named things such as Tom, Dick, Harry, and other common names).

 

And yup - the gadget that held stacks of canon balls for use during a battle was made of brass since sparks around gunpowder is a bad thing. Not positive about the 'monkey' part so may need to wander over to Snopes and see what they have to say.

[Huge_Vitae]

I didn't need Snopes for those two Chris.

 

And yup - the gadget that held stacks of canon balls for use during a battle was made of brass since sparks around gunpowder is a bad thing. Not positive about the 'monkey' part so may need to wander over to Snopes and see what they have to say.

Newt, My memory banks are overloaded now, but it is about the old sayings for numbers, I know that twenty is a score but I can't remember the rest.

 

Anyway, If you start at the top with one canonball, that is supporeted by four Canonballs and so on until you reach ( I think!) a Monkey! Brass was used because, as you say, it will not produce a spark, but also because it will not react with the iron in the Cannonballs and produce rust at a faster rate, however, the brass of the 'monkey holder' shrinks in cold weather at a greather rate than the cannonballs. Therefore the holes for the cannonballs would shrink faster than the Iron in the cannonballs causing them to roll on the deck.Hence the saying.

 

yours faithfully,

 

Huge Vitae...

 

AKA Gun Tom, Battery 3, Needles Battery IOW.

[five bellies]

IM going to be a party Pooper that thread has come around a few times and Some of it is wrong !

 

Four poster beds for instance. Thick drapes around a bed keeps out drafts keeps in warmth,

 

People drank out of pewter, pottery,wood,glass. the term wake has its root in ancient British and has nothing to do with being awake.

[DavyR]

Peggy, if you're interested in the origins of proverbs or sayings, a much more reliable source is Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable:

 

http://www.bartleby.com/81/

[Peggy Burke]

Peggy, if you're interested in the origins of proverbs or sayings, a much more reliable source is Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable:

 

http://www.bartleby.com/81/

 

Thanks Davy, I've had a look. Gives quite a number of word derivations

 

I do think that many of the sayings' derivations are lost in 'the mist of time' and it's difficult to get a definitive answer. This is another link which gives a whole lot of info and also says if an explanation is not necessarily 100% sure.

 

http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/gswithenbank/sayindex.htm

Edited March 4, 2008 by Peggy Burke