Big bream

[Steve Burke]

I've had a long phone chat with Andrew this evening and I'll be posting a few observations as a result as soon as I have some time.

 

Meanwhile, Andrew has prompted me to mention the 18-06 that Wingham produced in May 2006 and asked how old I thought it was. Unfortunately we don't have a scale from it so it's a big of a guess. However although there only a very small number of 3 year old fish were stocked I assume it was one of those.

 

I've also asked Andrew if he's able to make an A3 copy of the Google Earth picture of Wingham; he reckons he not only can but can also enhance it to show the bars better rather like I did with the aeriel photos. I'll then put this up in the clubhouse with coloured pins marking where we catch bream, see them or have line bites. Andrew suggested we have a key next to it giving all details such as time and date that I reckon is an excellent idea.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Steve Burke

[wyeknot]

I dont really know if they do or not.Dont realy see why they should if theres enough food in any one given area. When they want to change the depth they are in (because of temperatrure I presume) then there re several areas at Wingham where they could do this without having to move to far.

Continuing the thread on location, I was wondering about the effect that the undertow would have on the bream. I know that roach like a bit of flow but other fish prefer quieter areas. My feeling is that bream, and especially "SB"s , not being particularly athletic, would much prefer to be out of the main undertow flow. Wingham has a lot of "features" so it wouldn't be too difficult for them to find places where the flow is weak or where a particular feature provides shelter from it. Does this preference go some way to explain why the SB will feed in a certain swim on one day but be missing on another because the wind has changed direction in between? The predominent wind in the UK is SW. Will the areas of weak undertow on days of SW winds produce swims where we are more likely to catch? When the wind changes how quickly will the bream react?

 

Hmmmm . . . .

[Anderoo]

Continuing the thread on location, I was wondering about the effect that the undertow would have on the bream. I know that roach like a bit of flow but other fish prefer quieter areas. My feeling is that bream, and especially "SB"s , not being particularly athletic, would much prefer to be out of the main undertow flow. Wingham has a lot of "features" so it wouldn't be too difficult for them to find places where the flow is weak or where a particular feature provides shelter from it. Does this preference go some way to explain why the SB will feed in a certain swim on one day but be missing on another because the wind has changed direction in between? The predominent wind in the UK is SW. Will the areas of weak undertow on days of SW winds produce swims where we are more likely to catch? When the wind changes how quickly will the bream react?

 

Hmmmm . . . .

 

Yes, I still think sussing out the undertow will give us the best clues on location. My chat with Steve helped me confirm in my own mind the areas I'll be concentrating on early season, and the swim choice on the day will be based on what I think the undertow is doing. A light, unbaited rig should be enough to find the sheltered areas. These swims are barely ever fished, and I don't think have ever been seriously fished for the bream, certainly not in recent years.

 

Steve's map idea is great, hopefully it'll produce a pattern or two, or at least keep us guessing!

 

Rich, I can definitely see that point of view but I reckon with careful baiting you can cover yourself for both situations. However, I could just be setting myself up for a tortuous night of liners This year I'll be baiting and fishing with a multiple catch in mind, and if nothing else I hope to get some useful info...

 

If I'd just had that one fish out of the blue I wouldn't be thinking so much about catching more than one, but watching those huge bream roll over my spot for a good hour after I'd returned that fish, I know it can be done. Taking that fish from the shoal, landing it, returning it and recasting didn't spook them. They wanted the last of that bait...

 

Damn tench!

 

I'd still be interested to hear why it's accepted that they wander all the time? I meant to press Steve on this on the phone, but we got talking about something else very interesting! I gather it's received wisdom, but I don't know how it originated.

[Dick Dastardly]

Steve as part of your predator management policy have you ever considered the part the eels undoubtedly play in keeping the number of fish down as they heavily predate from egg to adult stages on most cyprinids?

 

No coincidence Im sure that a lot of specimen fish waters contain high heads of eels. Wingham eels are also of a high average size and there is a fair split between the two different types ie fish/worm eaters or narrow head,small eyed/wide head big eyed if you prefer.

 

Ive also heard it said by some that bream can heavily predate on newly laid eggs as well?

[Dick Dastardly]

I'd still be interested to hear why it's accepted that they wander all the time? I meant to press Steve on this on the phone, but we got talking about something else very interesting! I gather it's received wisdom, but I don't know how it originated.

 

Im no that sure it is accepted Anderoo.

 

Im really stuck on the buisness of trying to improve the chances of multiple catchs or not though.I kind of go with Derek and Richard in that I want to maximise my chances of getting just the one fish each time rather than risking this in the chance of a multiple catch.Well at this stage anyway.Certainly if ever I was able to take one fish on a regular basis then I would start looking at how/if I could increase this but one step at a time as they say.To get any multiple catch there must be a first!

 

Either as Alex been fishing there for longer than us he must have all ready reached this stage and is now looking on improving his results (I dont think this is so as he still has lots of un answered questions) or due to the fact that he has had several multiple catchs is now aware this is possible and is just trying to understand why so to maximise/increase these?

[Kappa]

Continuing the thread on location, I was wondering about the effect that the undertow would have on the bream. I know that roach like a bit of flow but other fish prefer quieter areas. My feeling is that bream, and especially "SB"s , not being particularly athletic, would much prefer to be out of the main undertow flow. Wingham has a lot of "features" so it wouldn't be too difficult for them to find places where the flow is weak or where a particular feature provides shelter from it. Does this preference go some way to explain why the SB will feed in a certain swim on one day but be missing on another because the wind has changed direction in between? The predominent wind in the UK is SW. Will the areas of weak undertow on days of SW winds produce swims where we are more likely to catch? When the wind changes how quickly will the bream react?

 

Hmmmm . . . .

 

This ties into my question about type of bottom. If you fing silt you are likely to have found somewhere not often bothered by strong undertow!

 

Rich

[lutra]

Talking of stock density has reminded me that our estimate for the number of bream at Wingham is one per acre, i.e. 40. This is probably one of the main reasons why these fish behave differently to shoal bream - they've never be in a truly competitive situation except when they were first introduced as fry.

Just a little curious Steve how you go about estimating how many fish there is in a water. Is there some kind of mathematical equation or is it just an educated guess based on catches and repeat catches or something else?

 

I dont think it was sugested that you should actually fish for them in the deep holes Steve but more that is where they would be holed up.Fishing "next" to such areas was the way I interpreted it?

Yes you interpreted it correctly.

 

Its pretty much impossible to fish the maximum 18 foot depth Castle loch has to offer with out some kind of boat. We were fishing in about 14-15 foot of water on them back end trips.

 

The salmon/barbel thing could be partially down to most salmon anglers, (as far as I'm aware), fishing either to individual fish, or known salmon holding spots, and that only at certain times of the year.

The results of minnows being used year round, and in other areas would, I think be interesting to see.

I keep meaning to give minnows a run out for barbel, I think one of the main reasons more barbel arent caught by salmon anglers is salmon anglers like to swing their bait through a swim to try and get that aggressive snap from a salmon, not cast it in and wait for something to eat it.

[wyeknot]

Just going back to idea that SB wander constantly all over the lake - why is it that this is accepted truth? Is there anything empirical behind it, or is it just the most logical way of explaining away the problem of location?

Some thoughts on this:- small bream on hungrier waters do wander. In fact on some waters you can almost set your watch by them as they pass by the same swim at almost the same time every day. Now is this behaviour innate to all bream? Does it apply to the SB?

At Wingham we have approximately 40+ SB in 40 acres. So even if they spread themselves out evenly (unlikely, I know) that's only 1 fish per acre. Put them in shoals of say, 8 fish, and the maths will tell you that is one shoal in 8 acres! But Wingham bream have been caught in quite a few different locations as well as being seen in others where they've not been caught. So either they do move all over the lake (in their shoals) or there are resident shoals in quite large areas.

I believe that one member has seen "two large shoals of big bream" in the daytime, in shallow water at Wingham. Maybe Steve can expand on this but I got the impression that it was early season (pre-spawning behaviour?). Fish shoal as a means of protection and I see no reason why SB should lose this instinct even if they have reached a size where almost all predators would leave them be.

Fish aren't capable of reasoning thought. They are creatures of instinct and habit. so SB will still shoal, possibly in year class groups; they will still wander but will be subject to external stimuli such as weather, bankside activity, sexual behaviour, etc.; they will still have predatory feeding urges if the food source is readily available and all other factors are positive. But, and this is the big BUT, SB appear to react in a different way to these factors than their smaller brethren would. Our problem is identifying which way they react to a given stimulus.

 

I tend to approach my fishing in a simplistic empirical way. If I find a bait/method/swim/etc. that works then I continue to use it. That doesn't mean that I don't think about my fishing because I do but, on say the matter of location, if SB have been caught from a known swim then it's odds on that they can be caught from there again, can't they? So what is the driver to look/try elsewhere? (If it ain't broke, don't fix it.)

 

Hmmm . . . . I could play devils advocate here but I want to hear what all you guys think.

 

Steve C.

[poledark]

I refer you to posts 41 and 79........

 

Den

[wyeknot]

I refer you to posts 41 and 79........

Den

This thread has got too big!! What a memory Den. Well done!

 

Steve C.