JB

I'll PM you with my answer. Although true, it would be politically incorrect to post it on the forum. JB

You will do well, my friend. John

Sounds about right! Goodnight Stavey.

Or put another way, our government cares nothing whatsoever for those who fish. Do you think we, as UK citizens, are suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome? JB

Hi Stavey, I strongly believe that the same attitude to preserving fish stocks that the New Zealanders have would work well and benefit all those who fish in the UK. Are you suggesting that an industry which is reputedly smaller than the lawn mower-making industry and much smaller than the sandwich-making industry could successfully oppose the wishes of a government which has been powerful enough in the past to squash the massive mining industry along with many other substantial industries? A government who declared war on another country against the will of most of its population? JB

Hi Stavey, Many entirely blame commercial fishermen for the lack of fish stocks around our coast. Equally many applaud the governments of other countries such as Norway, Iceland and a few others for looking after their fish stocks. So do you believe that past and present UK governments should shoulder no responsibility for the present state of our fish stocks? JB

Hi Seaside, Your history lesson is very much what I have lived through and taken part in. Around about twenty years ago, in the winter, the inshore grounds around the Yorkshire coast were saturated with gill nets out to a mile off shore; and beyond that to three miles extensively trawled; beyond that it was less extensively trawled but most of the rough ground and wrecks were being continually gill netted. I was a long-line fisherman at the time and I spent most of my time fending trawlers off my gear or avoiding net-enders so as not to get hung up on them. The fishing licence units that caught all the fish twenty-odd years ago have been greatly reduced by decommissioning. A large percentage of the remaining fishing licence units have been converted over to shellfish. So the same extensive inshore fishing cannot happen again. I can only assume that a similar thing has happened in your area. For the same financial reasons that you mentioned, what is left of our local white fish trawlers have already, or will in the future, turn to fishing prawn. At present there are no inshore prawns on our part of the coast. Whether things will change in the future, I don’t know. Prawns seem to be popping up in areas all over the North Sea that they have never been found before. At present, inshore prawns caught by trawlers are found north of Hartlepool, outside of three miles. But generally, most of the major prawn fishery is carried out far offshore in areas like the Outer Silver Pit, Dab Hole, Swallow Hole, Devil’s Hole, Clay Deeps, etc. Likewise, our charter fishing industry has gone the same way as yours. Fewer anglers, hence fewer charter boats, and less income for charter skippers. In fact, I was earning more money in the eighties with a few months’ summer charter/angling than the average Whitby inshore charter boat does now for a twelve month season. I was charging less than half of today’s price per person but there were many times more anglers. Many of us know our history, but what I am saying is - at least on the Yorkshire coast - things are very different now. You talk of resentment, yes there is resentment. We all have our fair share of resentment, including me. But what good does it do? JB

Hello Peter, I agree it appears to be the belief that there are thousands of UK trawlers around our coast going up and down 24/7 “hoovering up” every last fish. (I can’t think what “hoovering” has to do with fishing.) It also seems that every last dhan/ender or pellet the shore anglers see is perceived to be a gill net. I can only speak for the area in which I fish, but by far the vast majority of static gear worked in our area is pots. As you know, the Yorkshire coast at one time was very extensively trawled. However, the fleet has decreased dramatically, with only five boats working locally. With the massive increase of prawn stocks in the North Sea, I predict that within two years the remaining few will be prawn fishing offshore. I can’t speak for any other area, but if the assumption that the decreasing of commercial white fish fishing is good for angling is correct, then things are looking good for the future in the Whitby area. Speaking for the offshore central North Sea, the UK white fish fishing effort is less than 1% of what it used to be. All I am looking for is an honest appraisal of what actually is happening in different areas. Not internet media hype or uninformed speculation or propaganda, which is probably invented by the need-to-manage brigade. JB

Hi Steve, Rotten apples in a barrel spring to mind. Which you get in all walks of life, but condemning the whole barrel is usually counter-productive. Hi Leon, I have read the letter in FN and I know the area very well. Forty-odd years ago my father was one of the first men to fish that area for prawns. This time of year was always good in that area and twenty-odd boats has always been the norm. I would imagine that several Whitby boats would make up that number. But remember: when they are there, they aren’t anywhere else. Not sure what permits are required, but permits are usually easily obtained. If some vessels don’t have one then it is clearly a job for the NESFC patrol boat. As for ground damage, the bottom in that area is all mud and sand. Hi Stavey, Four hundred-plus boats is a hell of a lot. It sounds as if you have a considerable problem. Do you know how many are full time, how many are working pots, gill nets, trawling or any other method? What percentage of them do you see as rotten apples in the barrel? I very much agree with you about historical right. Unfortunately, it is part of the CFP which at the moment seems to be considered to be written in stone and non-negotiable. What I am trying to find out is what proportion of the British commercial fishing industry is directly at odds with RSA. Reading through the posts on the forum puts me in mind of the 1966 film “The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming”. Or the radio broadcast in 1938 by Orson Welles, “The War of the Worlds”. If you think you have an enemy, then find out something concrete about him, don’t act on Internet media hype. Hi Muttley, Wasn’t that quote also used in “The Godfather” movie? JB

Hi Steve, It’s a problem we don’t have in our area. Almost all the under-ten meter vessels in our part of the world work pots for twelve months of the year. There are a few that work long-lines in the winter months and a couple who work gillnets for a short time, usually in the winter. But neither of the latter two methods catches much fish nor have any great effect on local angling. JB

It seems the UK commercial fishermen are considered to be the ‘enemy’ on this part of the forum. And the majority who post show great resentment towards them, using phrases like ‘trawlers hoovering up large shoals of fish’, ‘factory ships’, ‘thousands of tons of discards’… and that word which comes up time after time, ‘GREED’. It would seem that most of the resentment is aimed towards UK demersal (bottom) trawlers over fifteen metres. Most of the fishing effort in my area is now directed towards shellfish, predominately crabs and lobsters. I do not see potting for crabs and lobsters as harmful towards anglers. In the main, potting should be beneficial to angling as it generally keeps trawlers off the very best of the fishing ground. There is the occasional incident of pots being towed away by trawlers, but nowhere near as many as there used to be. A net full of heavy pots is no good to a trawler man. So I believe that if calling commercial fishermen nasty names, or even ‘going to war’ with them is the right thing to do, then it might be a good idea to find out just how many of them there are and exactly what they do. The idea that ten trawlers today catch as much fish and do as much damage as two hundred trawlers twenty years ago is just rubbish. Most of the information posted on the forum seems to come from the Internet. How much of that information is merely propaganda? So, how many over-fifteen metre UK trawlers do you think actually exist, fishing around our coast? More to the point, how many have you actually personally witnessed fishing the grounds you fish? How many over fifteen- metre trawlers fish from ports near where you live? Let’s try and build up an accurate picture. P.S. If you have any questions on gill netting, talk to Wurzel. (Sorry, Wurzel!) JB

Hello Stavey, Having been involved in both the commercial and chartering industries for many years, I have found in the main that both the commercial fishermen and the recreational anglers are very nice, normal, sensible, decent people; and the vast majority have an eye for the future. However, representatives of both parties seem to me to be somewhat different. Maybe it is their vocation to stir things up with half-truths and misinformation? Common people don’t start wars, their leaders do. JB

Hello Seaside, Personally, I don’t think it is any more damaging than many other things that have been written on this and many other angling forums. But it proves one thing, that angling forums are being monitored by commercial fishermen. Two years ago, I did not know that angling forums existed. However, when it was brought to my attention that a campaign was being orchestrated to try and damage my angling business, I joined this forum to try and moderate things. Since then I have joined two more forums for the same reason. (It seems for the time being the perpetrators of this vendetta are mainly concentrating on other things. Hopefully things will stay that way.) No-one likes being called names, or to have lies told about them, or to have their livelihood threatened. In the same way, certain other Whitby businessmen - namely, commercial fishermen - have been accused of dastardly things on this forum, by people who (to put it in the nicest possible way) are, in the main, apparently ill-informed. Names have been mentioned, and this has created a lot of bad feeling in Whitby. This being the case, I feel sure that these certain apparently-wrongly-accused commercial fishermen are now monitoring this forum. These certain people are financially successful and very well-versed in fishing politics. Therefore, the aforementioned apparently-ill-informed people stating on an open forum the precise thing that they DON’T WANT to happen doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. Personally, I would be all in favour of a fence-mending process with the commercial fishermen. But then, I have never believed British commercial fishermen to be the enemy of anglers. It seems to me that the real enemy is now sitting back and hoping to see a good scrap between commercials and RSA. JB

Maybe it’s the way things will go, Leon. It’s happening on our side. This summer there were only about ten commercial vessels (and the Chieftain) working in the central North Sea. JB

Quote, ‘Fishing News’, 17th November 2006, Page 5, ‘Jim’n Alec’ cartoon: “Tell you what, Alec… this beats the hell out of towing a dirty great pair of doors and a bloody net up and down the North Sea all week!” Thirteen years ago, I decommissioned my boat and gave up commercial fishing because I had no faith in our government’s management of the industry, past or future. Although I was primarily a long-line fisherman when I took up full time charter/angling, my sentiments were very similar to those of ‘Jim’n Alec’. JB

Hello Peter, One thing I have learned over the years is that when your endeavours don’t come up to expectations, most people fit into one of two categories: those that blame other people for their failures, and those who blame themselves. I have observed that the ones who blame themselves always seem to be eminently more successful in the long run. JB

All UK commercial fishing vessels above fifteen metres in length have been tagged for quite some time now. I am not sure whether or not this applies to other European fishing vessels. JB

The same applies to the type of boat fishing we do. (Drift fishing in clear water) There are always exceptions, but the general rule is that simple rigs are almost always the most productive rigs. It never ceases to amaze me how little notice some anglers take of the angler on board the boat who is catching the most fish, generally with his very simple rig. It almost seems more important to decorate the line than it does to catch fish; and the more they seem to decorate it, the less they seem to catch. After trying - and usually failing - to convince these anglers to simplify their rig, my general stock comment is, “I bet your house looks nice at Christmas!” I have the same frustration when I hear an angler say, “There is no skill in jigging. It’s not rocket science. Anyone can do it!” Strangely enough, the people who say this are the ones who will blame everything and everyone for their own lack of application if they are not catching well. On hearing this statement, the anglers who know this isn’t true refrain from comment, smile, and carry on catching. JB

A good story and, funnily enough, a very true one. Over the last forty years, all over the world, governments and entrepreneurial businessmen have been trying to persuade fishermen to buy bigger boats, and/or convert to more efficient fishing methods, like trawling, in order to catch more fish. This very thing happened from the sixties onwards in the UK. Once one fisherman made the move, and became successful, the rest followed suit, thereby creating a whole society that would not have been formed if left alone. In recent years, many of the entrepreneurial business men have got out of fishing. Our government has paid millions to cut up many of the vessels that they originally financed; and are now telling the fishermen that they can only go to sea for a limited time each month. So, possibly, they should not have interfered in the first place. If this story has a moral, it is this: if you screw around with peoples lives, you should be responsible if the outcome is bad, and not abdicate all responsibility by blaming the people whose living you have turned to custard. JB

If the North Sea were to be divided up for fishing rights in the same way as it is for oil and gas rights, Germany would not be entitled to ANY of the Dogger Bank. The fact is, most of it lies in the UK oil and gas zone. Yet apparently they appear to have the authority to make part of it a SPA. Is this yet another example of us being royally screwed by the EU with their blundering doomsday machine, the CFP. Unless I am mistaken, we only have complete control of our fish stocks up to the six mile limit. I think we have to face the fact that although our government pays lip service to addressing the problems of all the ‘stakeholders’, it actually cares nothing for those who fish, and only values our depleted fish stocks as a bargaining tool within the EU. Many things could be done to improve fishing around our island, but I believe the main and only positive thing is to get the government to genuinely value fish stocks and all those who fish. Sadly, this is extremely unlikely. JB

Along with the hundreds of oil and gas installations, each with their NTZs, there are hundreds of square miles of the North Sea bed covered with crab or whelk pots, which are unofficial ‘no take zones’ for trawlers (apart from the French, that is!). There is a small by-catch of fish from these pots, but I don’t believe it is a major issue. Throughout the summer, I fish or travel across the Dogger Bank - an area of approximately 6,800 square miles. This summer I have only come across two Danish anchor rope seiners fishing for plaice. I have been told that they are the only ones left. In the seventies, there were over five hundred of these types of vessels from Esbjerg in Denmark and over two hundred from Grimsby, along with many others from other ports all working the Dogger Bank. The only commercial vessels we see in abundance are industrial sandeel ships and no one seems bothered about them or the consequences of industrial fishing. So, in effect, because it receives so little effort from the English white fish fleet it could be almost called the Golden Dogger Bank. In fact, the central North Sea, apart from a little bit of commercial effort close to shore, could be classified in the same way. The whole subject is very complex and has many influencing factors. But if everyone on here had seen what I have seen over the years, many might find themselves less scathing of the commercial fishermen and far more scathing of our government, who are directly responsible for the monumental lash-up of the CFP and the loss of our fish stocks which was - but apparently is no longer - our birthright. JB

Hi Carl, Looking through your list, and to the best of my knowledge (with apologies if I have spelt names incorrectly): The ‘Sea Trek’ of those days is now the ‘Heartbeat’. Stuart Johnson got the new Sea Trek, and Kevin Buick replaced the ‘Gannet’ with the Heartbeat. The ‘Gannet’ went into commercial fishing in Whitby, and then was sold away. ‘Sea Roma’ got into debt and was repossessed by Scarborough Borough Council and sold off to cover her debt. Steve Goodwill gave up chartering and moved to Bridlington. ‘Guide Me’ was decommissioned and went into the ownership of Hartlepool Maritime Museum. However, due to gross incompetence on the administrative side, and our government’s outrageous and destructive policies, she had to be cut up. I replaced the ‘Guide Me’ with the ‘Achates’, then the ‘Achates’ with the ‘Chieftain’. Russ Porritt now operates the ‘Achates’. ‘Kingfisher’ was renamed ‘Skylark’. She is now painted yellow and takes harbour trips. Wayne Wisson now drives a taxi, and Paul ‘Dolly’ Eddon moved onto the ‘Heather of Burnham’ and then to the ‘Trot-On’. ‘Harvester’ went to Bridlington to work commercially. Jimmy ‘Young Bant’ Ebdon eventually finished commercial fishing and chartering. ‘Pentland Wave’, ‘North Star’, ‘Moonlighter’ and ‘Gina St Belle’ were sold away. I don’t know where. ‘Cyanita’ was eventually sold to the Shetlands to work commercially. George Tabour went into the security business, but has since died. Graham ‘Moose’ Liley bought the boat, and it continued to operate as a charter boat and gill netter before he resold it a few years later. ‘Heather of Burnham’ was sold into private ownership in Hartlepool. ‘Well Spring’ was sold to Scotland to fish commercially. She now operates under a different name, and I believe was recently for sale again. Tony retired out of fishing. ‘Toiler’ was sold into private use in Whitby. She is now painted up in Leeds United colours and called ‘Super Leeds’. Brian Marsden retired. More boats have come and gone since those days, like ‘Wandrin’ Star’, ‘Enterprise’, ‘Mermaid’, ‘Cedan’, ‘Valdee’, and ‘Ocean Venture’. As you know, a few new-to-Whitby charter boats have been added in recent years, but sadly, on the whole, the charter business in Whitby has gone into a severe decline. JB

The ‘spawny’ fishery. Much has been said on the forum about the ‘spawny’ fishery, or ‘spawny’ fishing, which goes on in the latter part of the year off the north Yorkshire coast. So I thought that it might be of interest to some of you to understand how it came about, what went on in the past, and what possibly goes on now. Inshore trawling started on the Yorkshire Coast in the early sixties. The industry grew very quickly, due to our government’s large amounts of financial encouragement for fishermen to get into trawling. Consequently, by the late sixties, there were approximately ninety boats trawling out of the ports of Bridlington, Scarborough and Whitby. As they have probably done for thousands of years, the herrings moved down the east coast and arrived off the Yorkshire coast to spawn in the latter part of the year - usually from August onwards. They don’t always spawn in exactly the same place. I have known them to spawn from off Redcar to off Scarborough, but off Whitby seems to be a favoured place. Because the herrings were settled for a while in an area, and full of spawn, they were slower swimming and an easy target for the cod. So the cod gathered in great numbers and gorged themselves on the herrings. These were not large cod, as you would imagine, but were mostly medium-sized fish - fish in the six to twelve pound bracket. These gorged, slow-moving cod were an easy target for the developing inshore trawling industry, and this time of year became financially important for them. I took part in many seasons of this fishery and saw many good hauls of cod. Fishing for cod at this time of year was a daytime fishery. The boats went into harbour at night because the herrings came to the surface at night and the cod followed them. If you fished at night, you would mostly catch the then-plentiful haddocks which had moved in to feed on the herring spawn after most of the cod had left the bottom. During all my time spawny fishing I saw very few small codlings at all, even though when I started fishing the legal mesh size was seventy millimetres. The reason for this is simple: cod are cannibalistic and you rarely get very small cod when there are large numbers of bigger fish around. So that’s how it started; and it continued like that for many years. Alas, nowadays there is nowhere near the amount of the size of cod that were about in those days still remaining to prey on the herrings. Although I have no recent experience, it is now alleged that the fishing has changed to a smaller type of cod which no longer predominantly feeds on the herrings. Due to the lack of competition from the declining stocks of haddocks, these small cod mostly feed on the spawn. Another difference between then and now, is that at one time there would be well over a hundred boats taking part in this fishery. Nowadays, the figure would be more like ten boats. If there is a large by-catch of undersized fish, logically the government should do something about it, seeing as they started the fishery in the first place. But I will not be holding my breath… JB

Hi Leon, All interesting stuff. I strongly believe that if there is to be a cod recovery a major component in this recovery would an abundance of the correct food for the cod so it is heartening to see apparently correctly fed fish. I think what you said at the end of your post sums it up for me. “It all makes cod-hunting so much more interesting though!” Having operated a charter business from Whitby through the very best of times, I was unable to stand still and watch things go into decline. I had to move onward, upward and outward, going much further afield in the hunt for cod. JB

Hi Leon, Studying your charts, it looks as though they have latitude down the left side and longitude along the bottom. The areas we fish are approximately from 53 to 57 degrees north and off to 5 degrees east. Apart from off the Yorkshire coast, we rarely fish within fifty miles of the British coast and we have not yet ventured into the very northeast or southeast corners of the box given. We see a general improvement in the cod fishing east of the one degree east line; and a marked improvement in the cod fishing east of the three degree line. Also, the wrecks east of the three degrees seem more durable, and can be returned to more frequently. This summer, the quality of the easterly cod has improved on that of the last six seasons. It appears to be far better or correctly fed; the fillets are thicker and heavier than they have been in previous years. It would be easy to assume that there is a greater abundance of bigger and healthier cod in the eastern half of the North Sea than in the western half. It would appear that last year’s ban on industrial fishing may have had a beneficial effect on the cod stocks. JB