Fishermen Not Happy With The BBC

[hastfish]

well said wurzel a good informative answer by someone who knows what he is talking about,the same cycles have appeared in southern n/sea .,,stocks of most fish at all time high.scaremongering by so called experts is the main problem nowadays but us fishermen are the easiest people to point at and blame

[big_cod]

Look peter you can say what want i have been fishing on shore and from boat from 6 years old from whitby what the real picture is off our coast not only for cod but for ,,,dover sole, lemon sole you could just keep going non of them are nothing like they were in the 70ss due to overfishing i used to be a lumper on the fish quay i have filled wagons up with boxes of large lemons and large plaice and large cod long before you came to whitby to fish commercially and the fishing is very poor if compaire to the 70ss fo all species not only cod commercial fishemen allways talk the fishing up its in there interest the REAL picture is crap especially for cod to what it was in the 70ss its nothing to do with the climate the grand banks were tottally over fished just like the northsea there was massive declins in amckeral this last summer and that again is due to gues what over fishing the boats in the 70ss were dinky toys to the what boats we have now but if you are makeing a good liveing peter good luck you desrve it.

 

paul.

[wurzel]

there was massive declins in mackeral this last summer and that again is due to gues what over fishing

paul.

 

Hello Paul

 

 

I read that the Mackerel altered curse by 200 miles last summer, perhaps your mackerel just went some place else.

 

 

I would be interested in how many box's of bass you humped into those trucks while working on the quay during the 70's

Edited February 9, 2010 by wurzel

[Guest challenge]

Look peter you can say what want i have been fishing on shore and from boat from 6 years old from whitby what the real picture is off our coast not only for cod but for ,,,dover sole, lemon sole you could just keep going non of them are nothing like they were in the 70ss due to overfishing i used to be a lumper on the fish quay i have filled wagons up with boxes of large lemons and large plaice and large cod long before you came to whitby to fish commercially and the fishing is very poor if compaire to the 70ss fo all species not only cod commercial fishemen allways talk the fishing up its in there interest the REAL picture is crap especially for cod to what it was in the 70ss its nothing to do with the climate the grand banks were tottally over fished just like the northsea there was massive declins in amckeral this last summer and that again is due to gues what over fishing the boats in the 70ss were dinky toys to the what boats we have now but if you are makeing a good liveing peter good luck you desrve it.

 

paul.

Paul.

The mackerel quota is much less now than it was in the 70; 80; and 90,s. Your saying that it was a bad year last year in Whitby because of over fishing? There have been massive movements of localised mackerel shoals out of the Norwegian sector in the last year or so. The Norwegians have been having to renegotiate on there quota because they are not catching the quota in there territorial waters like in resent years. They haven’t over fished there waters, it’s just that the mackerel have moved in resent years Paul. Massive shoals of mackerel have been reported well into the westward of the Norwegian sector last year. Bigger shoals than have been seen for twenty years. One shoal was estimated to have the volume of the entire mackerel quota in it for all British pelagic vessels targeting mackerel last year. Pelagic Boats have been laid in harbour for weeks at a time simply because the shoals have been so dense they have caught there quota more or less overnight. The fact that anglers off Whitby weren’t catching many doesn’t mean that they have been caught it’s just that they haven’t been in this part of the world last summer Paul. Although we did actually board plenty of boats in the south of our district who had seen little change in the amount of mackerel they had caught last summer.

I totally agree with you Paul that commercial fishing will have played some part in the decline of fishing off Whitby. But what puzzles me is why after such a dramatic decrease in commercial fishing effort on our part of the coast over the last ten years (somewhere in the region of 80% to 90% decrease) why things don’t seam to of improved if you where to blame commercial fishing?

Regards.

Edited February 9, 2010 by challenge

[cleeclive]

Hello Clive

 

Not keen on the murdering bit, I expected better from you.

 

I agree the science is very inaccurate and is flawed in many ways and is often added to with state of fear statistics and threats of total extinction of some species by ngo's and even government agencies to justified their policies.

I have to agree the over all picture of a stock assessments , whether it is has decreased or increased, is on the whole accurate.

Now for the big crunch, I don't agree and can not see how fishing has influenced these fluctuations in stocks, it just don't add up.

I'm not saying fishing has no effect at all, I suppose it must have some especially more on a very local basis.

I'm not saying I know all the answers and every thing falls in to place according to the law of Wurzel because it defiantly doesn't and I am very willing to discuss and look at other views, I'll try and explain my stock assessments according to my theories and experience.

 

During the 60' 70 and into the 80's and large stock of cod caused mainly by the gadoid explosion of the 62-3 winter but also continued good recruitment caused by lower sea temps through out that time, fishing was good despite a large fleet quickly developed to fish for them, but as I remember there was a total ban on herring fishing because the herring stock had crashed in the same period, of cause over fishing was blamed but in reality the lower sea temperatures were to blame for very poor recruitment and nothing what so ever to do with fishing pressure, a stock with poor recruitment will sooner or later crash whether being fished or not.

Through the 90's global warming( I believe in global warming it's the causes I'm not so sure about) started to kick in and it was obvious cod were decreasing good years of recruitment were getting less and further apart , I came and fished from Whitby for three years because the cod fishing further south was becoming less reliable, at the same time herring stocks were expanding and sole stocks were increasing ten fold, the sole were increasing despite a large fleet of beamers targeting them along with a increasing French fleet of trammel netters, as one French netter said " you are still fishing for cod!!? Are you mad the sea is full of soles " we were starting to see an increase in bass recruitment again despite heavy fishing from several quarters most of all from French pair trawlers fishing on winter aggregations.

As I remember several of the Whitby fleet were changing over to prawns as that was another stock that seemed to be increasing and there were reports of a very strong year class of haddock about to come into the fishery further north.

But other than a blip in the late 90's early 20, incidentally following a colder than normal winter for that period, cod continued to decline.

Another stock I noticed decline was plaice, but I have a theory that the stock moved more than declined but it was influenced by sea temperature.

Now I feel, sense if you like that things are changing back again, the last 4 or 5 years have seen winter sea temperatures drop lower than previous years and cod have again started to have better recruitment and I predict a very good year class will emerge from this winter, plaice are again showing on the dogger bank in huge numbers despite heavy fishing pressure from Dutch beam trawlers, but bass recruitment is low herring recruitment is low sole will decrease if not die as they did during 62-3 winter, they didn't need a recovery plan just a warmer sea to recover.

 

So Clive if over fishing is the cause of the demise of a stock how can another stock fished for just as hard increase? Surely if over fishing is the cause of stock collapse all stocks would collapse when this is clearly not the case, despite heavy fishing pressure some stocks like sole, bass and haddock have not only increased but increased substantially.

Bass is a very good example of a stocks resilience against fishing pressure, being slow growing and very late maturing still managed to increase despite heavy fishing pressure, how come?

 

I know Big cod will come on here and remind me of the slaughter of cod off Whitby and Fambough Head and that’s what done in the cod stock, to pre-empt him. Big Cod needs to be able to look further than the Whitby Bell Buoy.

 

If these trawlers are so efficient you would think they would scoop every thing up in just a couple of tows and be gone else where, this is not the case often these trawlers are working the same grounds for weeks some times the whole season until the fish disperse due to their normal migratory pattern.

And then there is my theory that you can have several boats working an area say 30 or even 40 square miles off Flambough head these boats are working on say 20 box's of cod a tow and you might have 15 or 20 boats all working that area but at the same time there are grounds all over the North sea, thousands of square miles of sea that would have say 2 or 3 box's a tow on them not being fished , not worth big boats fishing them and the total volume of fish in those thousands of miles including wrecks and oil rigs far exceeds that what is being hammered by the boats working just off Flambough head in what in reality is a small area and the fish in that area despite being in a dense shoal is only a small part of the over all stock..

 

Over to you Clive

 

But leave the references to murdering out.

Wurzel you raise some excellent points here, and I cannot dispute any of those arguments. I remember my dad talking about catching bass off Filey Brigg in the 30,s (he was 50 when I was born). I don't think that they were seen much from the 50s until around 10-15 years ago, so this all supports your argument.

However if we put the stock assessment hat on there is a big problem of how those affects can be taken into account. I am sure that the scientist are well aware of the influence of temperature change on fish movements, but these are variables that they cannot pedict the effects of with actual numbers. The models that are used for stock assessment can only use data of what is caught in sampling surveys in specific areas and data on what has actually been caught. I have even questioned the sites that are actually used to undertake the small fish surveys. Over time things may well change in terms of where fish congregate and for what reason as you rightly point out. The problem is that if you have been making comparrisons for 40 years based on sampling at a specific site, you cannot just change the sampling site because that is introducing a new variable.

The scientists have their hands tied by the methodology of sampling for time series data, and if changing climatic conditions are the cause of fish movements how can you measure this? What they can measure is fishing mortality on a stock.

 

Scientists can be aware of potential strong year classes from plankton and small fish surveys. whether those strong plankton year classes survive to a fishable size will depend upon predation at larval and 0 and 1 group stages and then fishing mortality in terms of discards at year 2.

We can argue quite strongly that the science is flawed, and time the politicians play their part things may well be distorted a lot further.

 

There are a couple of other points to consider. Years when we have a lock of small fish in our catches be they angling or commercial fishing are a sign of poor recruitment two to three years previously. One can also argue that a lack of very large fish in catchesi.e.10-20kg cod is a sign of prolonged overfishing in that these guys are not surviving to a grand old age as they appearto in Norway and Iceland.

 

I accept your views on this and very well presented argument, but believe that they are a part of the problem not the whole problem. Time will tell and it will be interesting to see what the future brings especially if we have a few years of colder winters. Like you I believe in climate change but not because I drive a 4x4 and a Harley.

 

I hope you had a good trip

 

Cheers

 

Clive

[Guest challenge]

Wurzel you raise some excellent points here, and I cannot dispute any of those arguments. I remember my dad talking about catching bass off Filey Brigg in the 30,s (he was 50 when I was born). I don't think that they were seen much from the 50s until around 10-15 years ago, so this all supports your argument.

However if we put the stock assessment hat on there is a big problem of how those affects can be taken into account. I am sure that the scientist are well aware of the influence of temperature change on fish movements, but these are variables that they cannot pedict the effects of with actual numbers. The models that are used for stock assessment can only use data of what is caught in sampling surveys in specific areas and data on what has actually been caught. I have even questioned the sites that are actually used to undertake the small fish surveys. Over time things may well change in terms of where fish congregate and for what reason as you rightly point out. The problem is that if you have been making comparrisons for 40 years based on sampling at a specific site, you cannot just change the sampling site because that is introducing a new variable.

The scientists have their hands tied by the methodology of sampling for time series data, and if changing climatic conditions are the cause of fish movements how can you measure this? What they can measure is fishing mortality on a stock.

 

Scientists can be aware of potential strong year classes from plankton and small fish surveys. whether those strong plankton year classes survive to a fishable size will depend upon predation at larval and 0 and 1 group stages and then fishing mortality in terms of discards at year 2.

We can argue quite strongly that the science is flawed, and time the politicians play their part things may well be distorted a lot further.

 

There are a couple of other points to consider. Years when we have a lock of small fish in our catches be they angling or commercial fishing are a sign of poor recruitment two to three years previously. One can also argue that a lack of very large fish in catchesi.e.10-20kg cod is a sign of prolonged overfishing in that these guys are not surviving to a grand old age as they appearto in Norway and Iceland.

 

I accept your views on this and very well presented argument, but believe that they are a part of the problem not the whole problem. Time will tell and it will be interesting to see what the future brings especially if we have a few years of colder winters. Like you I believe in climate change but not because I drive a 4x4 and a Harley.

 

I hope you had a good trip

 

Cheers

 

Clive

Hi cleeclive.

See the weather is far from good for you to start getting the guerdoning equipment out.

I have always thought that the way that the scientist measure potential fish stocks was badly flawed, like you say the only way they could keep a proper track record was to go back to the same place and use the same methods to catch there samples. Whereas a commercial fisherman would shoot his gear and if there was no fish there he would go and try and find where it had gone to and then shoot his gear and catch it.

Regards.

[big_cod]

Hello Paul

 

 

I read that the Mackerel altered curse by 200 miles last summer, perhaps your mackerel just went some place else.

 

 

I would be interested in how many box's of bass you humped into those trucks while working on the quay during the 70's

 

 

I have seen quite a lot of bass caught as far back as the 70ss here at whitby i have had a few myself over the years from the shore but lets think just how much cod there was off whitby in 70ss and 80ss but not only at whitby but off flamborough i honestly beleive with fish its all down to pecking order will bass swim with large shoals of cod i wouldnt have thought so when cod were in the numbers like they once were around flamborough you wouldnt get the bass there as but as the cod have declined in such great numbers the bass have moved in in numbers which would have never been seen before i might be wrong be i am sure there is something in that.

 

paul.

Edited February 9, 2010 by big_cod

[Guest challenge]

I have seen quite a lot of bass caught as far back as the 70ss here at whitby i have had a few myself over the years from the shore but lets think just how much cod there was off whitby in 70ss and 80ss but not only at whitby but off flamborough i honestly beleive with fish its all down to pecking order will bass swim with large shoals of cod i wouldnt have thought so when cod were in the numbers like they once were around flamborough you wouldnt get the bass there as but as the cod have declined in such great numbers the bass have moved in in numbers which would have never been seen before i might be wrong be i am sure there is something in that.

 

paul.

You sore quite a lot of bass caught back in the 70,s? What do you mean by quite a lot? 50% of what they catch today? 30%? Or maybe 1 or 2% Paul if you where lucky. 15 years of trawling I think I caught 1. Today they regular land 50 to 60 boxes. so your saying because there are no cod there are bass?

regards.

[wurzel]

i might be wrong

paul.

 

In total agreement with you there Paul.

[wurzel]

What they can measure is fishing mortality on a stock.

 

I drive a 4x4 and a Harley.

 

I hope you had a good trip

 

Cheers

 

Clive

 

If it was proven that fishing mortality was insignificant it would throw the fishing management industry in to turmoil.

I am certain that the natural mortality for cod is hugely under estimated.

I do honestly believe that the UK fleet as it is now could not over fish a duck pond .

 

I also drive a 4X4 and a ZRX 1200 that has more ground clearance than a Harley.

 

We had a crap trip with not much fish very cold NE winds finishing off with a dhan tow in the propeller causing a leak around the stern tube.