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NO FISHING - WINTER - SALT


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Harsh I think Chevin, at least Toady is entertaining and this place is far better with the likes of him.

 

Not very impressed No 3 <_<

 

Fair enough, I wasn't impressed with his dismissal of my posting and so I made my feelings known. What I posted was based on knowledge not assumptions. I have no problem with being criticised if those who do so are as well informed on the subject as I am. I guess that many these days consider entertainment to be more important than trying to get down to the basic facts of a discussion.

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Politicians are not responsible for a country's rise to greatness; The people are.

 

The people are not responsible for a country's fall to mediocrity; the politicians are.

 

 

 

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I guess that many these days consider entertainment to be more important than trying to get down to the basic facts of a discussion.

 

Many perhaps but not all ;)

 

Fair point about the extra concrete now. I guess I am picturing the rivers I know well across the country, and where they are in relation to roads. I am struggling to think of any where the water drains straight into the river. When the snow melts, there is usually a fair amount of soggy, muddy stuff between road and river, and it looks as though a lot of the run-off doesn't get much further. Some does of course which is why the rivers rise, and the rest gradually filters through over time.

 

Does it still contain the salt though? Does the salt actually disolve in the snow melt and get carried into the river after being filtered by the fields and banks? Not very scientific I know, but when I add salt to water in a pan, if the water is cold, the salt just sits on the bottom. It's only when the water gets hot it disolves.

 

I don't have any science to back it up (although it would be quite easy to do I think, as mentioned previously), but from a purely fishing results perspective, I find rivers that are high and coloured are hard work anyway, and more importantly, the hardest conditions I have found are when snow melt goes into the river, regardless of whether it is salted or unsalted. Often in Britain we get a load of snow before the roads have been salted/gritted, and I have found the fishing just as hard then as when the roads have been treated. Cold water and low oxygen probably being the key reasons.

 

However, as always, I'm happy to change my view if there is proof to the contrary!

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music

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Few council officials have any idea of what kills fish or how to combat it. In the 1970s the council officials at Milton Keynes were proudly telling us of their plans for a sewage water treatment plant and of how pure the water would be. Many of us knew and said that it would be a disater. At the opening we saw officials drinking this wonderfully pure water and a few days later we saw fish dying. It's OK to have pure water, but it needs to have oxygen in it if fish are to survive and they had taken everything out of it.

 

As someone who has lived in Milton Keynes since errmm before it was here B) I can shed some light on super clean sewage treatment and 'things run off'.

BTW - I will try to deal in facts and I am neither scientist or local councillor :blink:

 

The flagship sewage treatment plant (Cotton Valley) built to process the outpourings of the Milton Keynes population originally flowed directly into the Great Ouse, as far as I know. After some teething troubles they eventually routed the outflow into the Abbey Pits (mid 70's) at Newport Pagnell (water still run by Newport Pagnell Fishing Association) with the purpose of them acting as maturation lagoons to dilute the highly nutrient rich but 'safe' processed sewage. I was fishing this water at the time of change and for a year or so the tench fishing was excellent until the water got so rich all the fish had to do was swim with their mouths open in a soup of invertebrate life. The fishing got very hard until they rerouted the outflow into the Sherington Road complex of pits (also NPFA). The same now applies there. The only good thing is that the pits where the water runs through never freeze up and are always fishable. I was there last week but it was still chuffing cold !

 

Another Milton Keynes 'benefit' was the digging of a number of balancing lakes (Willen, Caldecotte, Furzton, Teardrops etc.) to buffer the excess flow from the newly concreted area before disharging into the slowly moving, and therefore prone to flooding, Great Ouse. These pick up the water outflow from roads and drains first and they do suffer from the initial wash off. This was recognised many years ago by the match fishing fraternity who looked to the canal for more predictable events. The discharge eventually runs into the Ouse at various points and its not surprising that stretches above MK 'tend' to fish better than those below during times of initial flood and snow melt. Quite what the cause of the drop in catches is I don't know, but the effect is noticeable in both still and running waters.

 

Ian

Edited by Big Easy

Ian

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Actually the name of Hitchin comes from the name of the river that runs through the town - the river Hiz, the pronunciation of which is actually Hitch. The river also runs through the Prory Park in Hitchin which is where there was a shoal of huge roach. Of course it completely slipped my mind that Richard Walker, Pete Thomas, Bob Rutland and Alan Brown were great perpetrators of urban myths and if that is what you say it is, then I guess you must be right. If you remember 1963 you will remember that there was so much snow in places a lot of it was picked up and dumped elsewhere. But I guess that if it sounds like to much effort and expense to you, I suppose that you must be right there too. I posted my note with the intention of adding interest to your thread, only to have it dismissed as being irrelevant and inaccurate. Perhaps you aren't realy interested in seeing constructive additions to your thread being more interested in just seeing your name in print.

 

I spent a long time cut off during the winter of 1963 only a few miles from Hitchin just South of Royston and I cannot remember a single reference to dumping of snow and salt in any rivers. I did not say you were wrong but I did query you statement based solely on personal knowledge of the area at that time.

 

As for the people you refer to they could easily be the perpetrators of urban myths - anyone can - they are just human - plus they could have been misquoted - just look at the list of famous and well known anglers claiming to have invented this or that if everyone of them invented the same thing it would be amazing???

 

I like them am a person and like them and even you I can and do make mistakes or get things wrong – I am not infallible nobody is – I just said I had not heard of it – You disagreed so o.k. teach me – educate me – and I will accept it – don’t just get on a high horse like a Prima Donna.

 

So I would with respect say don’t tell me I am wrong show me, or at least where to look because I have just spent quite a while trying to find you proof for your statement and I have been unsuccessful so far, - now that might be because I am not a wiz on a computer or it may be I am using the wrong terminology or it might be I am stupid.

 

QUOTE:

"Salt was certainly a major problem during the '60's in a number of waters and especially the Hiz which was a brilliant roach water. During the big freeze one winter, Hitchin council scooped up tons of snow and dumped it on the ice over the River Hiz. Of course the snow was loaded with salt and grit. When the thaw began the salt went into the river and killed many of the roach, sadly the roach fishing never recovered from that."

END QUOTE:

 

The river running around part of Hitchin in Hertfordshire is the river Oghton the river Hiz begins as a small stream chalk fed stream over 10 (ten) miles North of Hitchin in Hertfordshire. This stream not noted for any fishing and certainly not for its Trout and was also known for drying up in the summer and being an underground stream for much os its course – The drying up however has now however been remedied as part of the recent and current water management schemes.

 

QUOTE from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchin:

Hitchin is first noted as the central place of the Hicce people mentioned in a 7th century document[citation needed] the Tribal Hidage. The tribal name is Brittonic rather than Old English and derives from *siccā, meaning 'dry', which is perhaps a reference to the local stream, the Hiz.

 

I cannot find any reference to the Hiz river running through Priory Park Hitchin nor any other river running through Priory Park Hitchin for that matter nor can I see any river running through Priory Park Hitchin on Google maps nor Google Earth – what am I doing wrong?

 

However let me set out the information that I have managed to accumulate complete with their sources:

 

North Hertfordshire Council (they are responsible for the Hitchin area) and naturally their area includes the River Hiz:

Nothing recorded of any such event or any loss of fish in the 1960’s.

 

North Hertfordshire Environment Agency:

No record of any such event ever or any fish losses during the 1960’s.

 

Hertfordshire (Hitchin) Library Service:

No record of any such event, in fact they pointed out to me that the River Hiz has always been known for drying out completely every summer except in very rare and unusually wet ones and the only fish the River has ever been known to have are sticklebacks, so not surprisingly there are no records of any loss of fish in the 1960’s. They also pointed out that the River Hiz is more an underground stream for a large part of is course and even then it is usually only a trickle and has always been known for drying out every summer and even in some winters.

 

Hertfordshire Record and Archive Office:

Could not find any obvious incident at anytime in the 1960’s comcerning the River Hiz, but should you care to pay for their time they are willing to undertake exhaustive research into the alleged incident.

 

Sorry no record of Trout on the River Hiz ever throughout recorded history and certainly no Roach.

 

In point of fact I got them to check on all rivers in Hertfordshire and was informed that there were no loss of heads of Roach due to councils dumping snow/ice/salt into any river nor is there any record of councils ever dumping snow/ice/salt into rivers in Hertfordshire in the 1960's.

 

Unless you can show me different I have to consider that -

 

Methinks you have been urban mythed.

 

Because I have used your information, the River Hiz and place Hitchin Hertfordshire references to no avail.

 

There is a however a mention of a Priory County Park which touches the Ouse and has lakes in it could it just possibly be that park you might have been thinking of?

 

I have also found references to a Trout farm although no Trout streams and the Trout farm is located at the head of the River Oughton not on the River Hiz

 

I would also like to point out that if I wanted my to see my name in print I might actually use it but I don't. Watatoad could be anybody. I do not have sole and exclusive use of any name.

Edited by watatoad

From a spark a fire will flare up

English by birth, Cockney by the Grace of God

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I would think with the extra water going through a river in a snow melt just the extra flow of water will put more than enough oxygen into the river.

As Andy Mac has already said fish do seem to like the tadal and lower stretches of rivers where the water is permanently saline. Infact a rivers largest specimines are often in these areas.

I suppose the sudden input of salt and icy cold water will put off fish what arn't used to it so may well kill the action until it's run off.

 

 

thats what i think as well , the sudden change of water temp puts them off until the water temperature catches up with the air temp

 

I thank you guys/girls I don't know which you are...hehehe

 

You have most likely hit the nail right on the head and certainly made me think. Back in the 1970's my wife and I bred fish as a hobby (my family have for many years followed this particular hobby and there is a plaque or there was a plaque to one of my Uncles at the London Zoo thanking him for restocking their complete aquarium after the second world war they got bombed the glass broke the water and fish went all over the floor and he helped them out with more fish). I have not seen the plaque since I was a kid as I took an instant hate to all Zoo's, even today I will not stay in a house if the occupants have animals or birds in cages.

 

However I digress - If you go along to your local pet/pond/aquarium stockist say you get a couple of goldfish for your garden pond you are told to leave the fish in the plastic bag for a while 20mins 30 mins to let the fish gradually acclimatise to the different water temperatures, to let the water temperature even out a bit. Should you enquire why you are told the fish cannot take the shock of sudden temperature changes, because it is a big/major shock to their systems. When we/you/I enquire about the looking after an aquarium we are given similar advice and we are told to get the water temperatures as close as possible when we have to top up the aquarium.

 

Now supposing nature just does that but on a massive scale take a river or a lake and then wash into it thousands of gallons of much colder water...Just guessing but it must be like having the daylights knocked out of you by a crowd of world champion boxers all hitting you at the same time everywhere...ouch.

 

So could it just possibly be the sudden temperature change that really does the primary damage.

 

I am certain we will all agree with the idea that the rubbish that must be mixed into the melt is likely to damage the eco systems and the biodiversity starting at the bottom and working its way up so fish might well simply be poisoned by what they eat or if it their food been wiped out by the rubbish then they are likely to starve.

 

I could well be wrong but it just strikes me that it is the mass influx of very cold water that we as anglers really notice and on lakes the answer is simple the bed of the lake is covered with rotting weeds and groundbait if the lake freezes over the gases developing from the rotting weeds and groundbait get trapped under the ice and the fish simply get gassed.

Edited by watatoad

From a spark a fire will flare up

English by birth, Cockney by the Grace of God

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Its not the actual temperature in either extreme (within reason of course!) that kills fish really but the affect that temperature extreme has either directly or indirectly on the dissolved oxygen in the water.

And thats my "non indicative opinion"!

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Better mention this.

 

I did not get a rant up on Chevin not even on his information - but I did get one up on myself.

 

I lived nearby

 

I have always loved Roach fishing above all else

 

I could not believe that I could live so local (10 to 15 miles away) and have not known of a large head of Roach in a nearby river, in those days I used to go all over the country at the slightest hint of good heads of Roach or large size Roach.

 

Let alone the loss of a large head of Roach - I would have been going nuts if I even heard the slightest wisp of something like that.

From a spark a fire will flare up

English by birth, Cockney by the Grace of God

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Its not the actual temperature in either extreme (within reason of course!) that kills fish really but the affect that temperature extreme has either directly or indirectly on the dissolved oxygen in the water.

 

I understand - but the effect is the same?

From a spark a fire will flare up

English by birth, Cockney by the Grace of God

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Better mention this.

 

I did not get a rant up on Chevin not even on his information - but I did get one up on myself.

 

I lived nearby

 

I have always loved Roach fishing above all else

 

I could not believe that I could live so local (10 to 15 miles away) and have not known of a large head of Roach in a nearby river, in those days I used to go all over the country at the slightest hint of good heads of Roach or large size Roach.

 

Let alone the loss of a large head of Roach - I would have been going nuts if I even heard the slightest wisp of something like that.

 

 

The huge catches of roach Dick and his mates caught from the Hiz in Priory Park were well reported both on the front page and centre pages of the angling times. Priory Park was privately owned and Dick only saw the roach in the river while setting up a stall for the annual fete that was held there. No one was allowed to fish the stretch but Dick knew the owner well and was able to get permission for himself and his friends to fish there. They caught big roach there regularly and 1962 quite a lot of them were transported to other waters, whethere or not it was legal I don't know, I never thought to ask Dick about that. The only one of the four I mentioned who is still alive is Peter Thomas but I am not going to trouble him with questions about the legalities. As far as suggesting that those four making up stories of that nature it is laughable. The fish were there, they caught them and reported them to the angling press. Dick also caught a lot of good roach from the River Beane, did you know about them? Somewhere I have some dates regarding a report and the apporoximate date of the centre page spread on the fish from the Hiz.

 

While it has less bearing on the matter than you seem to think, I lived much closer to Hitchin than you did in those days and I do remember that winter. I also remember snow plows leaving mounds of snow at the sides of the roads. On country roads we just had to live with it. However some town roads could not be left that way and I can remember front end loaders loading snow onto trucks which took it away. I also remember pictures in the local papers of lines of the stuff where it had been dumped in -places where it would not be in the way. I confess that I did not know at that time that any was being dumped by or on the Hiz, but I was aware of the roach being killed after the event.

 

As far as the Hiz running through parts of Hitchin is concerned, it is well documented and is hardly worth further discussion.

***********************************************************

 

Politicians are not responsible for a country's rise to greatness; The people are.

 

The people are not responsible for a country's fall to mediocrity; the politicians are.

 

 

 

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