Countryside Alliance Angling Forum

[Dunk Fairley]

Could they be one and the same after all? SOME say that the price of a licence is nothing short of highway robbery!

 

Anyway, back to the thread point. I've been looking at the CA pages and have to say that the discussion going on here, is much more interesting. It's nice to see sensible comment going on, over what for some people is a very important issue. Keep it up please everyone!

[Peter Waller]

quote:

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Originally posted by bloodworm:

[/qb]

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Now i though,with the comments you made you new somthing about the sport,you dont,same old thing,if someone finds somthing distastfull or they dont know what they are talking about they want to ban it,

 

tut tut..... [/QB]

 

Worm Sir, It might surprise you to know that I do know something about hunting, just not the sort that Mr Vampton had refered too, hence my question. Basically Bloodworm, you don't know me and you clearly don't actually know what I do know. At best you are guessing. Perhaps you should think before you hit the send button another time! Tut tut . . . . . . !!

[Ss]

Peter Waller your ignorance on the subject of hunting with dogs shines through, you don’t even know the difference between a fell pack and a mounted pack. What you fail to relies peter waller is that a ban on hunting with dogs also affects lurcher enthusiasts and terrier lads. These are good honest lads who take pride in their dogs and take pride in the correct and fastest and easiest ways on controlling vermin. Sure you could argue the toss that using a gun is the best way to control vermin but not every one has access to guns and not every one can get a gun licence and guns can only be used in certain places, not every shot is a clean shot. So peter Waller if using dogs to control vermin is not acceptable (according to you) and a gun can’t be used what is the next step, to use gas and suffocate vermin? or to use snares?

 

And to all the fishermen out there who don’t support hunting with dogs and to the people who think that if fisherman in general keep quiet they wont be affected by stupid ill though through bans please read this you are next on the list for the antis if a ban on hunting with dogs goes through.

 

“Angling is Britain's most popular bloodsport and is responsible for causing pain, stress, fear and death to thousands of millions of fish every year”

 

“There are three types of angling; coarse, sea and game fishing. Coarse fishing is by far the most popular and also the cruellest form of angling.”

 

“Fishermen enjoy the mindlessness of outwitting a fish into impaling itself on a hook, they don't tend to be inherently violent. This is a bonus if you are a small group, as you can sab more anglers and they are less inclined to fight back”

 

A number of different tactics have so far been effectively employed:

 

“1. One of the best has got to be the use of a canoe or rowing boat to make the anglers pull their lines in and disturb the fish. They may not even realise you're sabbing them, unless you've got a purple mohican.”

“2. The fish can be disturbed by throwing medium-sized stones in the water - not huge rocks as they may stun the fish through vibrations in the water. “

“3. Standing behind anglers, having a noisy chat about how many they've caught, can cause a shadow, disturbing the fish. “

 

“There are a number of things that can be done to sab matches, which are described in the HSA Tactics booklet or on a fact sheet available from the Abolition of Angling. We also want to hear about any new ideas for tactics and what's going on in different areas, so please do get in contact.”

 

The above are quotes from an anti-hunting/anti-fishing website, So as you can see from the above quotes the antis hate fishing and fishermen, granted not as much as they hate hunters but if the ban goes through on hunting with dogs the antis are going to turn all their attention to fishing and they will be even more determined to ban ban ban.

 

Please if you think I am talking rubbish maybe you should take a look at this site

http://www.anti-angling.com Campaign of the abolition of angaling are backed by PETA a hugely rich and influential American organisation.

 

P.S if you city slickers cant handle a bit of mud on the country roads them maybe you should stay in the city.

 

remember the old saying untied we stand devided we fall.

Thanks Ss

[Peter Waller]

Dear SS, welcome to AnglersNet. My answer to you is the same as to 'Worm'

 

One thing I am not is a 'city slicker', where the only time my off roader goes off the road is when it mounts the curb! I grew up in the country, was educated in the country and was brought up in the country, although, unfortunately, the town has grown up round me in the meantime, grrrrrrr.

 

The issue of luchers etc is unfortunate, and one that I have some sympathy with. For most objectors the main issue is one of fox hunting, with hounds, from horse back. Regretably other forms of hunting have been drawn into the issue. This is where I believe the CA is doing great harm. It is trying to hide the issue of fox hunting in amongst other issues such as angling.

 

For your information I am well aware of the anti hunting, anti angling sites.

 

Have a good day!

[Guest sslatter]

Ss:

What you fail to relies peter waller is that a ban on hunting with dogs also affects lurcher enthusiasts and terrier lads. These are good honest lads who take pride in their dogs and take pride in the correct and fastest and easiest ways on controlling vermin.

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Ummm... so what? That doesn't make it "right". And the only lurcher and terrier lads I've come across are not at all interested in the "correct and fastest and easiest ways in controlling vermin". All they've been interested in is making money out of it.

 

quote:

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Sure you could argue the toss that using a gun is the best way to control vermin but not every one has access to guns and not every one can get a gun licence and guns can only be used in certain places, not every shot is a clean shot.

That's right, but in the hands of a trained expert it's far more likely to be a humane method of despatch than any dog or pack of dogs. You lot will never admit the real reason you hunt, will you? Because you like it, and you don't give a toss one way or the other about animals.

 

quote:

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So peter Waller if using dogs to control vermin is not acceptable (according to you) and a gun can’t be used what is the next step, to use gas and suffocate vermin? or to use snares?

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A gun CAN be used if needs be, in the hands of a licenced expert, not some sadist euphemistically called a 'dog lover'.

 

quote:

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And to all the fishermen out there who don’t support hunting with dogs and to the people who think that if fisherman in general keep quiet they wont be affected by stupid ill though through bans please read this you are next on the list for the antis if a ban on hunting with dogs goes through.

---

Here we go again. When will you sadists realise that your bully-boy scare tactics are NOT going to work? Stop trying to inveigle the average angler into supporting your pathetic little cause. You and your ilk are an anachronism who should be put out to graze as soon as possible.

 

quote:

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Please if you think I am talking rubbish maybe you should take a look at this site

http://www.anti-angling.com Campaign of the abolition of angaling are backed by PETA a hugely rich and influential American organisation.

remember the old saying untied we stand devided we fall.

Thanks Ss

Yadda yadda. Seen it. Heard it all before. But it's not going to work on me or others. So there are people who hate angling? That's no reason to join your cause. You indulge in your own sickness mate. Don't try and infect others.

 

[ 08. March 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Graham X ]

[Ss]

“And the only lurcher and terrier lads I've come across are not at all interested in the "correct and fastest and easiest ways in controlling vermin". All they've been interested in is making money out of it.”

 

I hate to burst the bubble in your fantasy world grahram x but lurcher enthusiasts and terrier enthusiasts don’t get paid to control vermin nor do mounted or fell packs. The only people who get paid to control vermin are fully licensed pest controllers.

 

“You lot will never admit the real reason you hunt, will you? Because you like it, and you don't give a toss one way or the other about animals.”

 

LOL come on man get real no one I know that hunts with dogs likes to see animals suffer for pleasure even if the animal hunted is vermin they still need to be dispatched as quickly and as humanely as possible. Graham you are right there is an element of enjoyment and that is seeing the dogs work, but when it comes to the despatching of vermin it is as quickly and humanely as possible. I can’t put it anymore simpler than that.

 

 

“A gun CAN be used if needs be, in the hands of a licenced expert, not some sadist euphemistically called a 'dog lover'.”

 

Graham a gun cannot be used near public footpaths public right of ways and near roads even when all the surrounding land is private. A vast majority of private land is next to public roads also there are public rights of way cris crossing the UK, Not every farmer or landowner has access to guns. Surely Graham a loving caring guy like your self doesn’t want to see a mass influx of guns being used in the UK which inherently don’t know the difference between a health fox a ill fox a fox cub a vixen in cub or a dog fox.

 

 

“Here we go again. When will you sadists realise that your bullyboy scare tactics are NOT going to work? Stop trying to inveigle the average angler into supporting your pathetic little cause. You and your ilk are an anachronism who should be put out to graze as soon as possible.”

 

I am not trying to bull-boy any one I am trying to open people’s eyes to the ever so real threat of such stupid and ill thought through laws. Which will affect an awful lot of innocent people in the long run.

Carry on and stick your head in the sand graham, do you honestly think that the future of fishing is safe in our ban culture? Again I hate to burst the bubble in your fantasy world but it isn’t.

 

 

Graham have you even followed a mounted hunt or had a walk out with a genuine lurcher or terrier enthusiast? Going from your post I suspect not.

 

There is good and bad in every thing some anglers don’t give two hoots about the fish they catch so should the all anglers be branded as not caring? NO. some anglers go fishing for the day and leave rubbish strewn out over the river banks so should every angler be classed as a litter bug? NO.

 

Graham may I ask why you go fishing and what type of fishing you do?

 

I also enjoy fishing, i enjoy the feeling of catching course fish, hunting out the best spots to catch the biggest fish from, after i catch my fish a handle them and return them to the water in the correct mannor and the only thing i leave behind are my foot prints. So you see graham people who hunt with dogs and people who support hunting with dogs are not all cruel blood thirsty savages.you are entiteld to your own opinion i can't open a bigoted closed mind, maybe if you lived in the same area as me we could meet up and spend the day fishing. But then again you wouldn't want to be seen in public with the likes of me heavens forbid, what would that do your squeaky clean reputation.

[Guest sslatter]

GX “And the only lurcher and terrier lads I've come across are not at all interested in the "correct and fastest and easiest ways in controlling vermin". All they've been interested in is making money out of it.”

 

Ss “I hate to burst the bubble in your fantasy world grahram x but lurcher enthusiasts and terrier enthusiasts don’t get paid to control vermin nor do mounted or fell packs.”

 

I never suggested that they did. What I wrote was that all they ever seemed to be interested in was making money from their ‘sport’, how to make it pay. And some DO get paid for it, by certain riparian landowners, at least in the area in which I live. And the “terrier lads”? Some of those are employed full-time by hunts. Isn’t that getting paid in the “vermin-control process”?

 

GX “You lot will never admit the real reason you hunt, will you? Because you like it, and you don't give a toss one way or the other about animals.”

 

Ss “LOL come on man get real no one I know that hunts with dogs likes to see animals suffer for pleasure…”

 

Patently not true in my experience, more about which later.

 

GX “…even if the animal hunted is vermin they still need to be dispatched as quickly and as humanely as possible.”

 

Yeah, that’s what they say to the Press, cameras etc. In reality, they couldn’t care less about ‘vermin’. That’s implicit in the nomenclature.

 

Ss “Graham you are right there is an element of enjoyment and that is seeing the dogs work…”

 

Then go drag hunting then. Who needs a fox?

 

Ss “…but when it comes to the despatching of vermin it is as quickly and humanely as possible. I can’t put it anymore simpler than that.”

 

You’re implying that it is quick, every time. Yeah right. In a perfect world, maybe. Not in the hunting world. Just doesn’t happen.

 

GX “A gun CAN be used if needs be, in the hands of a licenced expert, not some sadist euphemistically called a 'dog lover'.”

 

Ss “Graham a gun cannot be used near public footpaths public right of ways and near roads even when all the surrounding land is private. A vast majority of private land is next to public roads also there are public rights of way cris crossing the UK, Not every farmer or landowner has access to guns. Surely Graham a loving caring guy like your self doesn’t want to see a mass influx of guns being used in the UK which inherently don’t know the difference between a health fox a ill fox a fox cub a vixen in cub or a dog fox.”

 

Again, you’re resorting to scaremongering tactics to suggest that we would suddenly be awash with gun-toting irresponsible maniacs who would shoot across thoroughfares willy-nilly. I’m talking licenced pest control here. Shooting on private land, away from danger areas. Responsibility.

 

GX “Here we go again. When will you sadists realise that your bullyboy scare tactics are NOT going to work? Stop trying to inveigle the average angler into supporting your pathetic little cause. You and your ilk are an anachronism who should be put out to graze as soon as possible.”

 

Ss “I am not trying to bull-boy any one I am trying to open people’s eyes to the ever so real threat of such stupid and ill thought through laws. Which will affect an awful lot of innocent people in the long run.”

 

This is utter bull. You’re using an age-old tactic. It’s practically proselytisation. You think that the majority of people here will be taken in by this? No way. They’re far too canny. Your tiny minority continually try this tactic to bring in the much greater numbers of anglers to their side. Let me tell you something. Association with you lot denigrates angling, drags it down to your level, not only per se, but in the eyes of the public as well. It doesn’t fool me, and it won’t fool others here.

 

Ss “Carry on and stick your head in the sand graham, do you honestly think that the future of fishing is safe in our ban culture? Again I hate to burst the bubble in your fantasy world but it isn’t.”

 

No I don’t think the future of angling is necessarily safe. And it’s certain that it would be a lot less secure if it was allied/aligned with you lot. You don’t represent the majority of feeling amongst the angling fraternity, so stop trying to scare people.

 

Ss “Graham have you even followed a mounted hunt or had a walk out with a genuine lurcher or terrier enthusiast? Going from your post I suspect not.”

 

I love this one. “A genuine lurcher or terrier enthusiast..” When I lived in rural West Sussex, the Downs were awash with these “enthusiasts”, letting their dogs run free to attack anything that moved. Up until recently, I worked as an Environmental Liaison Officer for three years in the New Forest, and I’ve had plenty of experience with these so-called “enthusiasts”, let me tell you, and a bunch of more uncaring, bloodthirsty , pretentious self-centred antisocial nonentities I’ve never encountered. They bludgeon their way around the forest as if they own the place, oblivious to the environment. Pathetic.

 

GX “There is good and bad in every thing some anglers don’t give two hoots about the fish they catch so should the all anglers be branded as not caring? NO. some anglers go fishing for the day and leave rubbish strewn out over the river banks so should every angler be classed as a litter bug? NO.”

 

Agreed, but here you go again, trying to inveigle anglers onto your side of the argument, by using angling as a comparison.

 

My main problem is this: the defences you pose for your pro-hunting argument have been reasonably countered many times. To elaborate:

 

1) Foxes are vermin, and need to be controlled;

 

If this is so, there are other ways to do this, which would be numerically much more effective than the one or two foxes killed by a hunt on any hunt day. Also, this is not true in many cases. If it were, why would keepers and huntsmen breed foxes to return to the wild? If you deny this happens, well, it most certainly does. I’ve seen it in the forest, so don’t tell me it doesn’t happen.

 

2) There would be mass unemployment if hunting were banned.

 

Not if you went drag hunting there wouldn’t. Hunting could continue in just the same way, only the quarry would change.

 

3) The “country way of life” would be eroded.

 

This is a spin on the oft-used tactic that I mentioned before: that of scaremongering by association. It just wouldn’t happen. Nothing would change, only hunting foxes would disappear. Like I wrote before, if you want to go hunting, then go drag hunting.

 

Ss “Graham may I ask why you go fishing and what type of fishing you do?”

 

You don’t give up, do you? Trying to inveigle me as an angler? No chance mate.

 

Ss “I also enjoy fishing, i enjoy the feeling of catching course fish, hunting out the best spots to catch the biggest fish from, after i catch my fish a handle them and return them to the water in the correct mannor and the only thing i leave behind are my foot prints. So you see graham people who hunt with dogs and people who support hunting with dogs are not all cruel blood thirsty savages..”

 

I’m sure they’re not. There’s always the odd exception to any rule. Most of them, however, should really think about their real reasons for doing what they do. Why do they need a live quarry that gets ripped-up and killed? They could quite easily use a drag, but they don’t. Think about it.

 

Ss “you are entiteld to your own opinion i can't open a bigoted closed mind, maybe if you lived in the same area as me we could meet up and spend the day fishing. But then again you wouldn't want to be seen in public with the likes of me heavens forbid, what would that do your squeaky clean reputation.”

 

Personal comments aside, as I wrote before, foxhunting and its supporters are an anachronism, whose days thankfully are numbered. Someone much wiser than me wrote earlier in this thread words to the effect of we, as a species, are continually evolving, with new ways of thinking, particularly in respect to the environment and the flora and fauna with which we share this planet. And not before time.

[trent.barbeler]

Dear All,

 

Although twisting off this threads main path somewhat, something to say concerning Lurchers, shooting etc.

 

For more years than I care to remember, since childhood in fact, I was involved in various branches of "fieldsports". OR; Bloodsports as some might apply as a popular descriptive these days.

 

For many years, I always kept a couple of Lurchers and Terriers. These were worked regularly for Hares and Rabbits. Some were lamped and some taken in the daytime whilst employing the terriers to work and flush ground game from thick covert.

 

I also kept many ferrets, made my own purse, ride, gate and long nets. The excitement gained from a days ferreting, or a nights long netting is unmissable in my opinion. I can smell the damp night air even now and still feel all those plump rabbits hitting the long net in my memory.

 

I also used to shoot an awful lot. Mostly rough-shooting or pidgeon shooting. Sometimes driven pheasants if I got any invites as I was never one for joining shooting syndicates and the like.

 

Along with my life long passion for fishing, I have been actively involved in all sorts of country pursuits. Never fox hunted though as the prospect of hurtling through a hedgerow on the back of an animal weighing enough to crush the life from me never really appealed. Also, horses and myself have a history in the fact that they all like to bite me for some reason.

 

So does my own personal involvement in all these various branches of field sports make me a bad person? Who knows. But I thoroughly enjoyed myself at the time anyway. And I certainly would not under any circumstances try to justify my sporting or hunting experiences to anyone else. My own involvement in these passtimes was not done under the guise of vermin control although that could have been an aspect I suppose. I was involved because I actually enjoyed it. And whilst I only fish now, I still enjoy watching the chaps work their dogs, lurchers, terriers and gundogs locally. I enjoy watching the local falconers fly their birds, enjoy watching the stands of guns pheasant and partridge shooting. And YES, I enjoy watching the foxhounds come through our village when being exercised early in the morning and always have a chat with the Huntsman and Whipper-Ins. Contrary to popular belief, these men are not the Devil reincarnated but are extremely nice blokes who always have a good tale to tell. If foxhunting does get banned, I will miss their occasional company dreadfully. To me, it will be the loss of yet another section of country characters.

 

But aside from myself, Fred J Taylor, Jack Hargreaves and BB all intrepid and highly respected anglers also took part actively in all the passtimes I did. As did/do many other respected anglers. So does their involvement make them bad people? I dont think so and certainly, the likes of Fred J Taylor, Jack Hargreaves and BB have brought vast amounts of enjoyment to millions via their writing and broadcasting based upon their fieldsports activities.

 

And it also might interest Ss to know that I actually DO live slap bang in the middle of rural England within two very large reputed sporting estates. And mud on some lanes IS an annoyance to a lot of other country folk as well. As this in fact the result of a practice from a minority of farmers who cant be bothered to clean their own mess up. For us,we have little choice via given advice that we stay OUT of the countryside as it actually IS our home.

 

Even so, whilst many argue the toss of whether to ban this or ban that, we in the countryside gererally just get on with our lives and appreciate everyone elses right to choose what ever countryside passtimes they wish to pursue. For us, we geuinely cant see what all the fuss is about.

 

On the other hand, our new bloody country milkman must be as mad as a snake. He's started delivering his rattley clattery trade at 12.45am in the morning. Bang on time every morning seven days a week!! Must be to avoid the early morning mud on the roads. Or he could be an anti something hell bent on getting his own back on us sleepy rural folk. He's certainly getting to me!!

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[Cranfield]

Well written trent.barbeler, the view that everyone involved in country sports is a "bad person", is pathetic.

 

Ss, don,t bother trying to make blind people see.

I,m afraid (as a keen angler), that we will have ample opportunity in the future to say, "I told you so".

 

 

Peter, this thread got to three pages before I commented.

Not bad, is it?

[trent.barbeler]

Dear Graham X,

 

A comment from me If I may concerning your paragraph copioed below;

 

Quote;

 

"I love this one. “A genuine lurcher or terrier enthusiast..” When I lived in rural West Sussex, the Downs were awash with these “enthusiasts”, letting their dogs run free to attack anything that moved. Up until recently, I worked as an Environmental Liaison Officer for three years in the New Forest, and I’ve had plenty of experience with these so-called “enthusiasts”, let me tell you, and a bunch of more uncaring, bloodthirsty , pretentious self-centred antisocial nonentities I’ve never encountered. They bludgeon their way around the forest as if they own the place, oblivious to the environment. Pathetic."

 

I believe that in the above paragraph, you do have a valid point Graham.

 

Over the ages, lurchers and dogs of similar type have been kept by country folk and gypsy families. The sole purpose for keeping such dogs was as a means of feeding the hungry family. Poaching tales in old books are also awash with stories of near-do-wells and infamous local poachers who kept such dogs. Colourful tales that have mostly become eggagerated over the ages but remain entertaining none the less.

 

Time moved on and these types of dogs were still kept for the same purpose. One of catching food for the table.

 

When I first took up with lurchers, there were hardly any one around that had a similar interest. Getting farmers permission to "run" or "work" such dogs over their land in pusuit of hares and rabbits was easily attained.

 

But as time moved on, lurchers grew in popularity and many took up the "sport" or "passtime". So much so, that a whole ethos grew up around these types of dogs. Sad to say, certain undeniable activites from many eliments within lurchering began to give the sport a very bad name indeed. As a past practising lurcher man myself, I have come up against many examples of dreadful behaviour that contributed towards giving lurchering a bad name. In addition, these were not isolated incidences in my experience but many and numerous.

 

Lurchering has died down now in many Midlands areas and is not as popular as it once was. However, the sport still keeps its bad reputation none the less. Where I live for example, only the really well known and established lurcher men still enjoy the land owners welcome. And the innocent wishing to take up the sport really do struggle to obtain landowners permission who still remember the bad old days.

 

I'd like to be able to say that it was another case of a minority giving the majority a bad name. But in my personal experience, anything but that was the case sadly.

 

Even so, I still enjoy those crisp mornings watching our local lurcher men work their dogs on the local estate land. My bonus it that very often I get presented with a nice brace of plump rabbits for the table. Nothing quite like a good rabbit stew to put some colour back in your cheeks.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.