Trebles for carp

[Guest Richard Capper]

Originally posted by Pinkeye:

Richard Capper,

How can you say that you feel that carp anglers are more caring than predator anglers?  Do you have evidence?

 

By the way, Richard, do you use a keep net when you go fishing?  I don't!

 

 

Well I would say treble hooks are the evidence, however, in light of others protests what about the use of klinik? do you use klinik any pike anglers?

 

No I don't OWN a keep net

 

P.s. Steve Burke:

I was not aware of this problem with barbless hooks and perch. I had not yet experienced any problems, however, I usually only lip hook them as I strike straight away. Yes I miss quite a few but nothing is worse than a deep hooked perch!

 

This barbed / barbless will rage for quite some time I haven't seen any damage on ant fish due to the use of barbless hooks but many others say it does happen .. with what fish / hook sizes?

 

I'm not calling for a blanket ban on anything its just I couldn't really understand the justification of using a treble hook and thanks to those who have tried to explain.

 

Guess I'm feeling guilty after Steve Burke's post.

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Richard Capper (edited 09 September 2001).]

[Guest Newt]

Steve - speaking of perch, we discussed the possible use of the Gamakatsu octupus circle hooks a while back. Microbarb and great about giving lip hooks even on fish that like to swollow a bait & hook. Did you ever get a chance to try any? If not, email me your postal address.

 

I've just ordered several packs of #8,6,4,2,& 1 in that pattern and will mail you a couple each of the #8,6,4. I think those sizes should cover perch pretty well as I've had some really small ones on a #8 and the #4 will easily handle a pretty large fish. I know you folks like really tiny hooks but Gamakatsu doesn't make this pattern smaller than #8.

[Guest Pinkeye]

Well, all I can say to you Richard is that you are a shining example for us all to follow, I bet you don't smoke, drink or even fart in the bath do you?

 

I personally cannot be bothered to continue this discussion any more, I'm bored.

 

PS No I don't use klinik so you must love fish more than me. There you have it ladies and gentlemen carp anglers (or should I say Richard Capper) is a more caring angler than the average pike fisherman.

[Guest Steve Burke]

I've a lot of answers/comments to make on this subject but I seem to be having problems with routing as it's taking ages for these pages to load and replies don't appear to be getting through. Please bear with me.

 

One comment I should like to make immediately is that, whilst I'm concerned with the controversial way Richard brought this subject up, I do think it's a valid one for discussion. It doesn't hurt to examine our traditional practices from time to time.

 

I'm even more concerned that predator anglers are being alienated. I don't believe they should be, and certainly don't feel that way myself. We've had the same situation in the past when carp anglers felt that they were being attacked, and it caused a lot of problems.

 

Please therefore don't let this topic develop into anything remotely like a slanging match. In particular let's immediately drop this point about whether carp or pike anglers are more caring. Surely the answer is that they both care!

 

So let's get back to the topic itself, which as I said earlier is definitely worthy of discussion. I've certainly got both comments to make and questions to ask.

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

[Guest Elton]

I've only just latched onto this thread and, consequently, have only read the few posts on the second page.

 

As a carp and pike angler, should I be beating the proverbial out of myself right now

 

Elton

 

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[Guest Steve Burke]

Originally posted by spindle:

Steve

 

It's an interesting point you make about using barbed hooks for Perch.  I'm hoping to spend part of my fishing time this autumn trying for perch on my local river and as a noted perch authority, I'd value your advice.  My usual bait will be worm, probably lobs.  In your opinion, what is the optimum size of hook you would use, and barbed or barbless?  Would you prefer to use a large barbed hook, or a smaller barbless? I appreciate that worms can wriggle of a barbless - I was planning to use some type a rubber stopper to prevent this.  What about "pinch-barbed" hooks from Preston (I have some in size 10).

 

In the smaller sizes (12 and below) I too have been experimenting with Preston Pinch Barbless hooks and my early impressions are favourable. I especially like them for maggots and casters.

 

For those of you who are not familiar with them, these hooks are made without a barb but the point is squashed where the barb would normally be to made a thin diamond shape. They're supposed to hold a fish better than convential barbless patterns yet not cause the damage that barbed hooks can sometimes do, especially on unhooking.

 

I haven't used them long enough to come to any firm conclusions yet except to say that they certainly make unhooking easy, and I can also tell you that they're just as easy as barbless hooks to get out of clothing!

 

For worms I tend to use mostly sizes 6 to 10, and occasionally 12s, depending on the size of the bait. For lobs it's almost always a size 6. I find small hooks and worms, especially lobs, result in way too many missed bites.

 

By far my favourite worm hooks are the Ashima Super series, which are all identical apart from the colour. They have absolutely tiny barbs - in fact the barb on the size 6 is about the same on most microbarbed size 16s! The barb is also set close to the point. This short point coupled with the tiny barb means that they shouldn't penetrate that far, and thus minimises the risk of penetrating a perch's vital organs.

 

They are also fine in the wire so that their weight doesn't adversely effect presentation. The squarish shape bend means that baits stay in the right place and that the hook has less of a tendency to twist and mask the point. The only thing I don't like about them is that they're spade end rather than eyed. I've nothing against spade end hooks except for the fact I'm hopeless at tying them!

 

Unfortunately they've now all been discontinued, but I did manage to buy a bulk supply in size 6 before then. If you e-mail me your snail mail address I'll be pleased to send you some.

 

If anyone finds any of these hooks in any colour in sizes 2 and 4 especially please let me know asap!

 

Ian Cresswell has kindly sent me some circle hooks and I see that Newt has also made a similar offer. (Yes please, Newt, do send me some!) I'll be trying these this winter when my perch fishing starts. Phonebush has also send me some US hooks to try which are bigger and thus seem more suited to fish baits. Thanks again, guys!

 

If you're forced to use barbless hooks for perch try showing the fishery controllers this thread. If they won't see sense and don't mind their perch being killed you'll have to use barbless!

 

I haven't tried Pinch Barbless in the larger sizes but have used tiny bits of elastic band or silicon rubber to keep worms on. Even tipping the worm with maggot will somewhat help. Alternatively both John Roberts and Enterprise Tackle make plastic worm stops.

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

[Guest Steve Burke]

Originally posted by Richard Capper:

 P.s. Steve Burke:

I was not aware of this problem with barbless hooks and perch. I had not yet experienced any problems, however, I usually only lip hook them as I strike straight away. Yes I miss quite a few but nothing is worse than a deep hooked perch!

 

This barbed / barbless will rage for quite some time I haven't seen any damage on ant fish due to the use of barbless hooks but many others say it does happen .. with what fish / hook sizes?

 

Richard, I too advocate striking immediately and am always hammering this home in my articles. I agree that it's better to miss a fish, and console myself with the idea that the missed ones are less likely to be specimens!

 

Nevertheless, I still sometimes deeply hook perch. If you do a lot of perch fishing you'll find that you can't always lip hook them, however hard you try.

 

As far as your second question goes, we've discussed this here many times in the past. I'd suggest you use the search facility at the top right to investigate the subject in detail.

 

 

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

[Guest Richard Capper]

I agree Steve theres no point having a slanging match, sorry if I've offended anyone.

This barbless hooks for perch thing REALLY bugs me. On the one hand I'd prefer to always use barbless hooks because they are so much easier to remove and up to yesterday I believed they were kinder to the fish.

 

HOWEVER now it seems barbed hooks would be better however when a perch is deep hooked with a barbed hook surely this would do more damage on removal?

 

About the preston pinch barbs I've used them this season for stalking carp with worms and have had no problem ... in your opinion are these a good compromise?

 

Also for anyone who use worms for other species i.e. not perch, I found if you thread your worm up a barbless hook so part of the worm goes over the eye/spade they very rarely come off as the eye/spade acts as a barb of sorts.

[Guest Steve Burke]

As both a confirmed experimenter and a predator angler for many years, I've tried just about every conceivable combination of single, double and treble hooks, both barbed and barbless.

 

I've concluded that when bait fishing for perch there is no justification at all for using anything other than one single hook.

 

Pike on the other hand seem to be different for a variety of reasons, most of which have already been brought up by others. With the correct set-up and quick striking, experienced anglers rarely seem to damage pike by the use of treble hooks.

 

My own experiments, and those of many others, show that trebles are also more efficient hookers than either singles or doubles.(Having said that, I do still sometimes use a "Uni-Rig". i.e. a single in the lip and a treble on the flank when fishing whole deadbaits and head sections).

 

However, all these tests have been conducted using the hooks available on the UK market. Newt and Phonebush have recently drawn our attention to circle hooks, and now Oolichan has highlighted the hooks used in his part of the world. (Are these the same?)

 

Oolichan, have any head to head studies been done between both the safety and the hooking efficiency of trebles and the hooks you favour? If so, what were the conclusions and can you point us to any relevant web pages?

 

One of the best things about this Forum is that we can all learn from each other, especially when we're separated by a major ocean. Just because we've been practising catch and release for so much longer in England doesn't mean that we have all the answers.

 

Unfortunately, the method that Richard used to start this interesting debate has probably caused some to dig their heels into possible change. However, let's keep an open mind on the subject. I for one would certainly like to investigate the US and Canadian techniques.

 

Let's also hope that Richard has learnt from this experience, and that we can all now keep this discussion objective rather than emotional.

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm

[Guest Steve Burke]

Originally posted by Richard Capper:

I agree Steve theres no point having a slanging match, sorry if I've offended anyone.

This barbless hooks for perch thing REALLY bugs me. On the one hand I'd prefer to always use barbless hooks because they are so much easier to remove and up to yesterday I believed they were kinder to the fish.

 

HOWEVER now it seems barbed hooks would be better however when a perch is deep hooked with a barbed hook surely this would do more damage on removal?

 

About the preston pinch barbs I've used them this season for stalking carp with worms and have had no problem ... in your opinion are these a good compromise?

 

Also for anyone who use worms for other species i.e. not perch, I found if you thread your worm up a barbless hook so part of the worm goes over the eye/spade they very rarely come off as the eye/spade acts as a barb of sorts.

 

Speaking personally, apology accepted. I'm also glad I've got at least one convert to microbarbed hooks in certain circumstances!

 

I'd much rather slightly damage the skin of a fish, from which it will rapidly recover, than increase the risk of killing it. In any event I don't find microbarbed hooks very difficult to remove if done quickly and firmly.

 

However, if you do deep hook a perch don't even try and remove the hook. It's much kinder to cut the line and leave the hook in. Perch are easy to identify as each has a unique stripe pattern, so I know that these fish not only survive but eventually get rid of the hook.

 

As for the Preston Pinch barbless hooks, I haven't come to any final conclusions yet. However, I will say that the early results are encouraging and so far they seem an excellent compromise. BTW, they're now available in a variety of sizes and patterns, including eyed.

 

 

 

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Wingham Fisheries

http://www.anglersnet.co.uk/fisheries/wingham.htm