How Many Fish Can The North Sea Sustain?

[wurzel]

I still think thier need to manage is a hell of a lot more than our need to be managed. As you anglers will soon find out.

[JB]

Hello, Leon! Michele here. I was just about to post the question 'Is it actually feasible for the UK to withdraw from the CFP?' when your posting came through. Thanks for pre-empting me and answering my unasked question so adeptly! While most of us posting here are being all ‘emotional’ (and often one-sided) about things, you can be relied upon to pop in with a rational and impartial analysis of a situation, complete with research resources. You constantly amaze me with your wisdom, comprehensive knowledge, and understanding.

 

The CFP has adversely affected the recreational as well as the commercial fishermen, whether or not anglers realise or admit this. I think it is understandable why UK fishermen feel they have been sold down the river. Basically, they were – whether or not it was for the “greater good”. (I’m sure there could be a lively debate on that topic – and not just amongst fishermen!) However, after reading your sensible posting, I can see that it is (as I suspected) most unlikely that withdrawing from the CFP is a viable step towards the solution. So, as I see it, we all have to work together to find other ways to improve the condition of our seas. But is that actually possible?

 

Whenever our anglers have chatted to me about their country, and its role within the EU, I have been struck by how helpless and downtrodden they seem to feel. I haven’t noticed a spark of optimism for the future in any of them. Not only do they seem to want to ‘get out of the EU’, they appear to feel that their only way forward is to get out of the UK itself. They seem to be losing (or have already lost) their pride in this beautiful country. They’ve certainly lost faith in its government, and abandoned any hope that ‘things will improve’. I find that very sad. Of course, the things that get them down are not just EU issues alone, but taxes, crime, racial issues, cost of living, fuel prices, etc… but it all comes down to a mistrust of their government. And I don’t know how one goes about fixing that! So I can understand that helplessness – and the consequent apathy – of the English people I’ve met in my five years here.

 

When John mentioned my lack of understanding as to how your government could trade away its seas, he used NZ as an example of a system that is working. You commented that we should take a look at the map to see why Iceland, NZ and Norway could do things differently. However, it’s not just that those countries have a geographic advantage, and that we have 200 mile fisheries limits, and governments that recognise the importance of sustainable fishing and healthy seas. I think our greatest advantage is our populations. For starters, Iceland’s population is under half a million; New Zealand’s is four million; Norway’s 4.5 million. Even Canada, which also seems to be doing good things with its fisheries, has a comparatively small population of only 33 million. So, realistically, how can the fishable seas around the EU nations possibly feed (and provide recreation) to the EU (457 million) or even just the UK alone (60.5 million) unless the EU treats and cares for these resources as the precious and endangered commodity that it is?

 

Thanks again, Leon…

Michele

[Guest @AUTUMN@]

Eu Hatred??? governemnet mistrust???

 

Not really fishing but i'd like to disclose my thoughts on the issue. Out of all the people who say they hate the eu and want out of europe how many of them understand europe? how many know the real policies? (I certainly dont). I believe the people of our country, me you and even michelles anglers all get our information from 1 source which is the great Brittish press. There is a massive anti euro lobbey out there, well funded and with a loud voice. Someoene has an agenda to make us anti eu and when your constantly fed snippets of eu hatred and constantly see the euro parlaiment ridiculed on the news and in the papers with silly stories about non bending bannana's and square watermelons and all this pc bulls**t then overtime you will come to believe what you see. We have all been brainwashed, some of us arent bright enough to see it. Wether the eu is good or bad im not sure but ive never once seen anyone been allowed to sell the pro's of the eu without been belittled and ridiculed - What is all that about ???

 

With regard to our government have we ever been happy?? have we ever had that patriotic pride? Those of you old enough to remember the wars may have witnessed it but I question where it has been since and whats the alternative to this governemnt?? Another Maggy Thatcher?? how many of your customers from south Yorkshire would swap Tony Blair for her??? I think its a case of the grass is allways greener over there. Some people need to wake up and smell the cheese.

[chesters1]

"How many fish can the North Sea sustain?"

is it seventeen with a seal or 28 without?

[Glasgowdan]

the problem with european law isnt that its crap... its just that the directives are so vague and widespread that in reality they just shouldnt apply to a lot of locations... take an example of farm waste... a busy large cattle farm in south west scotland will have to account for every kilo of chemical dip they use and return packaging to ensure there is no effluent dumped into the already polluted rivers... at the same time, a crofter in lewis who uses on bag a year will have to adhere to the same rule, and return the bag etc etc, when in fact what real overall damage could this guy really do? Its all relative but the eu doesnt see that.

[Jaffa]

Leon, there may be a recognition that the CFP has failed but EU subsidies continue to pour into the Spainish industry . As long as that happens , its hard to believe that the EU has really changed its ways

 

According to this news report the Spainish are considering paying their fishermen a fuel subsidy. No doubt this will come out of EU funds one way or another....

 

Spanish Fishing Strike still Thrashing

 

Madrid, Oct 27 (Prensa Latina) Spanish fishermen continue on strike this Thursday, blocking seaports, but are analyzing an offer by the Agriculture and Fishing Ministry of raising to 60 percent the damnification for rising diesel fuel costs.

 

If they accept Agriculture Minister Elena Espinosa´s proposition, the union guilds will unblock harbors that maintained paralyzed traffic.

 

After more than 14 hours of tense negotiations, the Ministry offered them .095 Euros per liter of diesel fuel used, equivalent to 60 percent of the hike on prices of this fuel, faced with .084 Euros (40 percent) of the initial proposition.

 

Meanwhile, ports from Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Murcia and Andalucia are still blocked. The Basque fleet joined Wednesday the protests and blocked ports of Bilbao and Guipuzcoa. Cantabria´s harbor also merged with the protests, but without blocking it.

 

The Balearic Islands guilds agreed to back the strike, but they won´t block ports because the work stoppage has already damaged the society. Balearic President Jaume Matas talked with President of the Spanish Government Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero about the island's alarming situation.

 

The Spanish Shipping Association will demand compensations for suspending ship traffic, but neither the Agriculture and Fishing Ministry nor the guild's leaders ignore the situation.

 

In Barcelona, nearly 20 ships are anchored and waiting to enter the harbor, with 16 docked and waiting to leave, while in Valencia the protest affects 37 ships and another nine have cancelled their layovers.

[Leon Roskilly]

Leon, there may be a recognition that the CFP has failed but EU subsidies continue to pour into the Spainish industry . As long as that happens , its hard to believe that the EU has really changed its ways

 

EU Fishing 'Subsidies'

 

I know that in the past there were susidies for Spain to build it's fleet.

 

Do you have information on the current position?

 

"No increases in capacity are allowed and reductions in capacity are targeted towards the newly introduced recovery and management plans so as to ensure that the capacity of the fleets is matched to available resources. Public aid for construction and modernisation of fishing vessels that could increase capacity, or generally for the transfer of EU vessels to third countries (except for humanitarian purposes to help fishermen struck by the Indian Ocean Tsunami disaster), has also been phased out. "

 

(Jo Borg - See 'Jo Borg on EU reform below')

 

"In response to questions on the proposed European Fisheries Fund for the 2007-2013 period, he said that aid would be available for vessel modernisation to upgrade safety, hygiene and living conditions on board but ruled out a return to helping the building of new vessels which had contributed to fleet overcapacity and overfishing. "

 

Jo Borg's visit to Spain

 

 

 

According to this news report the Spainish are considering paying their fishermen a fuel subsidy. No doubt this will come out of EU funds one way or another....

 

Spain increases fuel subsidy

 

Hmmm! So Spanish fisherman are taking political action over high fuel prices in Spain, and that is evidence that the EU is evil.

 

In fact the EU is resisting calls from all fishing communities for direct help with fuel costs, favouring FIFG funding to vessels to allow them to tie up if they can't afford to go to sea.

 

http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/pages/news%...rts_to_bite.htm

 

"He said operational subsidies for fishermen were against EU rules and the European Commission was investigating. "We look to the Commission to uphold the level playing field between member states."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...all/4264064.stm

 

I haven't seen any evidence that the EU will treat Spain differently, have you any evidence of that?

 

 

 

You have seen a problem, you haven't seen any evidence that the CFP has changed.

 

What are you going to do about that?

 

(The big problem that I see with UK fishermen, and their relationships to the EU is that they sit around discussing 2nd hand stories, swapped in pubs and on decks, criticising the EU, but they never make the time to find out the real facts and if there is a problem, what is being done about it, and if that doesn't suit them, at least writing to their MEP, to the EU minister responsible etc. 'We should get out of the CFP' is about as far as any of them ever get - problem solved!).

 

Currently there is a EU Green Paper on EU Maritime Policy under development.

 

Will fishermen (as usual) wait until it's published, then criticise it?

 

Will they respond to the consultation once it's published, or wait until the conclusions are published then demand that we get out of the CFP, because it is not what they want?

 

SACN recently recieved this from an EU Minister:

 

"As you rightly say our concern is not merely fisheries but comprehends other sectors including tourism, clearly one of the sectors with more potential within a maritime policy. You are also correct by pointing out that within the tourism and leisure areas the recreational angling sector is a sector of great relevance.

This fact will not be forgotten in the Green Paper. - Tiago CUNHA"

 

At least angling is engaging positively, and maybe ahead of the game!

 

If things need changing, it needs people to engage to bring about any change that they feel is needed.

 

CFP Facts

 

Jo Borg on EU Reform

 

Tight Lines - leon

Edited October 28, 2005 by Leon Roskilly

[JB]

It would seem, at least on the surface, that fuel prices will have a bigger effect on the trawling sector of the British fishing industry than anything else at present. It is unlikely that there will be any fuel subsidy or other government assistance given to commercial fishermen - other than decommissioning, perhaps, which many are already talking about taking if it becomes available.

 

I think that high fuel prices in the UK are here to stay. However, other countries have considerably cheaper fuel at the pumps. Although I don’t know their commercial prices, I understand they are also much cheaper.

 

If high fuel prices cause the demise of UK trawling, it could be the answer to the prayers of many on this forum. In the short term, at least, it may be considered to be a very good thing. However, inevitably the rest of Europe will try and take up the slack. I know we have six and twelve mile limits, depending on which country is fishing near our shores, but if our government doesn’t trade these limits for other things they consider to be more important, loopholes will be found. This may have more impact on fish stocks than the current UK fleet is alleged to be having. Despite what the rules are supposed to be, thus far the British Navy and other policing bodies have shown great reluctance to board non-British vessels. And writing to our politicians will have no effect whatsoever. Therefore great vigilance would be required to see that we don’t get sold down the river yet again.

 

JB

[JB]

Hi john and Michele.

Hope that you are keeping well? Your season must be shortly coming to an end now?

Fist of all I will say thank you for taking up the subject of this thread. I have brought this subject up a couple of times but with out the desired effect. Maybe it’s because I am in the commercial sector or maybe it’s that I have not the communication skills of you and Michele? I think, as most will, the latter.

Its great reading (this thread) and very interesting to read yours and other views on the state of our sea.

I have also witnessed a lot of the changes that have been stated. We like you travel great distances around the North Sea and we like you have our meter on at all times.

Thank god we don’t use the old paper meters anymore as even if we where to turn them over (the paper that is) we would fined it a total waste of the rain forest for what we where marking.

We have witnessed in the dogger bank and silver pit areas similar feeding comparisons to you, fish stuffed with small crab, fish full of small Dover soul, but its not often we get a haul anymore where you see the sand eels spewing out of the cod as the net is coming up.

I know there are still pockets of feed inside; I only have to walk along the cliff top to see the sea birds diving and chasing the feed.

I believe we have a connection as we both know Andy straw? He tells me that he comes of fishing with you occasionally in the summer? I have had the good fortune of knowing Andy for quite a few years and have been fishing with him on several occasions.

When I have been fishing with him he will spend hours scouring up and down the coast looking for signs of feed before he starts fishing, he tells me that although there is still feed in the water, its not as heavy as it once was, but he does say that the last few years he has had some if knot the best inshore fishing yet.

What’s he like when he comes with you? Does he catch much? Does he blame the skipper if he doesn’t?

I am just glad he never became a full time commercial fisherman when he had the chance I think there would have been a lot less fish on this stretch of the coast than there is today.

Ok will have a read through the rest of the threads now I have the chance. Again thanks.

Hi, Binatone!

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, John and I are keeping well (and happy). And yes again, our season is rapidly coming to an end. Then the winter work starts in earnest – grinding rust, painting, general maintenance. You know what it’s like – there’s always work to be done on a boat! We’d rather be at sea.

 

You asked about Andrew Straw. He joins us (as our guest) three or four times a year. His ultra-busy lifestyle doesn’t allow him to come nearly as often as we’d like! We are restricted a little by the need for appropriate tides when taking him on a trip, as Whitby Harbour doesn’t offer any facilities to make life easier for folks in wheelchairs who just want to get out there on a boat and fish.

 

One of the trips Andrew managed this year was a 94-hour one – a departure from his usual 36-hour or 60-hour trips. If you get the chance to look at our website http://www.chieftaincharters.com you’ll find a few pictures of him there. In the 1994 gallery you’ll see shots of him being loaded onto the boat in his wheelchair, using our HIAB. Quite an adventure!

 

You asked what he was like when he comes fishing with us. Hey, you know the man - one of the greats! But, as you asked… um… well, he’s beautifully behaved! A happy soul. Great company. Fishes like a champ – a truly exceptional angler. Fillets his own fish. Is always willing to help other anglers with gear, advice, practical assistance, whatever. Never complains about anything. I love him to pieces – as, it seems, does everyone else who meets him! (He would probably be mortified if he knew we were discussing him on a forum!)

 

Here’s a photo of Andy with an 18lb cod: http://www.chieftaincharters.com/ANDREW%20...W%20cropped.jpg

And another of him just being Andy (taken on the 94-hour trip)... http://members.tripod.com/chieftaincharters/Andy.jpg

 

Michele

P.S. I couldn't download photos directly into this message using the instructions forum members kindly gave me once before, suggesting I use the http://www.go-fishing.org/upload/ site. It worked back then, but now all I get is a 404 error message. Any more helpful advice available, gentlemen? Ta! M.

Edited October 28, 2005 by John and Michele

[JB]

Eu Hatred??? governemnet mistrust???

 

Not really fishing but i'd like to disclose my thoughts on the issue. Out of all the people who say they hate the eu and want out of europe how many of them understand europe? how many know the real policies? (I certainly dont). I believe the people of our country, me you and even michelles anglers all get our information from 1 source which is the great Brittish press. There is a massive anti euro lobbey out there, well funded and with a loud voice. Someoene has an agenda to make us anti eu and when your constantly fed snippets of eu hatred and constantly see the euro parlaiment ridiculed on the news and in the papers with silly stories about non bending bannana's and square watermelons and all this pc bulls**t then overtime you will come to believe what you see. We have all been brainwashed, some of us arent bright enough to see it. Wether the eu is good or bad im not sure but ive never once seen anyone been allowed to sell the pro's of the eu without been belittled and ridiculed - What is all that about ???

 

What you say above may very well be true. Our successive governments have certainly treated us like mushrooms regarding most things to do with the EU. It has definitely been an example of deplorable PR.

 

With regard to our government have we ever been happy?? have we ever had that patriotic pride? Those of you old enough to remember the wars may have witnessed it but I question where it has been since and whats the alternative to this governemnt?? Another Maggy Thatcher?? how many of your customers from south Yorkshire would swap Tony Blair for her??? I think its a case of the grass is allways greener over there. Some people need to wake up and smell the cheese.

 

As for patriotic pride, it did not die after the war but is decreasing with every new generation.

Ted Heath gave away our fishing rights. Whether or not anglers accept this, he hurt them as well.

Maggie Thatcher killed the coal mines and did great harm to the miners, along with many other industries and people.

As for Tony Blair, I will not comment. However, history will eventually tell us of his major hiccups (spelt with an F?).

 

As Michele said in her posting, UK people seem downtrodden. I agree with her. However, when I speak to people from other countries, they seem more positive and full of hope. Have you noticed that? I lived almost three years in British Columbia, and have extensively visited New Zealand. I am amazed at the attitude of the people of these countries. It seems that as well as looking after the fish stocks, their governments know how to look after the people.

 

JOHN BRENNAN