EU to Review Cod Recovery Plan

[Guest @Winter@]

Hello Winter

 

You would say that because you are an angler and know very little,

 

where as I a comercial fisherman who knows a tiny bit more but would say

North Sea has warmed up by around 2 degrees due to global warming, the phytoplankton on which the cod larvae feed has moved 200 miles northwards and is now in abundance around Iceland, the Faeroes and Norway. Indeed most of the cod we now eat in the UK comes from these waters.

“Meanwhile, North Sea cod continues to spawn in its traditional spawning grounds where the newly hatched cod larvae suffer massive mortality due to starvation. Nothing we do will change this situation. No amount of draconian measures and savage regulations will cause an upturn in cod stocks. Not until the North Sea cools down again can we expect to see any change in the situation,

 

I'll wait for the scientists verdict not yours.

 

"where as I a comercial fisherman who knows a tiny bit more but would say"

 

See your off with your delusions of grandeur again wurzel, you can get special medicine for that you know.

[Jaffa]

About bloody time this was looked at. Sense at last.

[The doctor]

I was thinking about how we could get all the various groups together in an attempt to get concensus on how to manage the 'publically owned marine resources' that are so important to all sectors. It struck me that at the present moment, this is so far from reality that there would be no point.

 

So we have to look at hypothetical solutions to an age old problem.

 

Lets take a quick look at the present situation from all angles.

 

Firstly the scientific community;

 

Conflicting views, those involved at the sharp end (fisheries scientists)say that practically all commercial species/stocks globally are in decline, some in significant decline. Solution; a complete moratorium on some species, others a significant decrease in effort.

 

Specialist and conservation scientists; many agree that the lower trophic levels throughout the food chain are declining, whilst many are OK other species are subject to considerable decline and or are showing a shift in geographical distribution. Others state that fishing activity is having a significant impact on populations of species higher up the food chain (small cetaceans (Porpoise and dolphins) & marine birds (Albatross etc.)). Sea temperature rise in some instances is responsible for the geographic relocation of some important lower order prey species (E.g. Calanus finmarchicus).

 

Recreational sea anglers;

 

The abundance and composition of fish (practically all species) is showing significant decline, others exhibit reasonable abundance, but poor age distribution (small immature or adolescent fish). Sea anglers want to catch more and bigger fish, they don't want to have to compete with miles and miles of gill nets. The problem is percieved to be over-exploitation by the commercial sector and this over-zealous exploitation is seriously denuding the angling experience. Sea anglers will back the marine bill

 

The commercial sector (Exploiters);

 

There are plenty of fish in the sea, if only we were allowed to catch them, we are providing a vital food supply to the nation, the reason that there are too few cod around is due to global warming, its not our fault. The number of juvenile cod around in the North Sea is 1000 times greater than we have seen in at least the last 10 years. Overfishing is not the reason for there being no cod. There is no reason to continue with the cod recovery plan because they will never come back due to global warming. We will not see any recovery of cod until the sea cools down again. We can't make an honest living anymore because the UK government and EU commission are squeezing the life blood out of us and all the local communities that are reliant on the commercial fishing fleets. Where are our historical rights. As long as the UK and Brussels continue to set TAC's that reflect the amount of fish fishermen need to catch to be profitatable there can be no co-operation.

 

For what its worth all the above comments originate respectively from either Scientific journals/ ICES press releases, press releases from angling orgs, angling press and Fishing News.

 

So the views are simple and never the twain shall meet. So whats the solution, depends on who you talk to.

 

The fisheries scientists say more reduced effort and moratorium on some species.

 

Anglers echo those views and ideally some would like to go further.

 

The conservationists and specialist scientific communities continue to exert the problems of lower and higher order trophic impacts (fishing up or down the food web!!!) or impacts of sea temperature rise.

 

The fishing industry maintain the stance that its not their fault, its bad management that has allowed them to catch or waste (discarding) all the fish resources, or sea temperature rise is responsible for the lack of recovery in many species.

 

So where do we go from here, well there may be only two options;

 

Either the EU bites the bullet and follows on from the CAP and pays a subsidy to all fishing vessle owners not to fish and buys out the licences of at least 80% of those currently registered, thereby ensuring that in 5 or 6 years time when the fishing effort resumes the effort on a larger biomass is a shadow of what it used to be.

 

Or

 

The fishermen are allowed to catch what they want, no restrictions, no TAC's or quotas, no MLS, no discards, in fact the management of fish stocks is effectively under their management. However, the cost of recovery, should a stock or stocks collapse should be borne by the industry (those who made the profit in the first place). Lets say a bond of £10,000 per metre to be paid by each and every fishing vessel owner in the event of a collapse. Given that the industry is so confident that they could do a much better job of managing the fishery than those currently charged with the job, I wonder how many takers would register an interest.

 

Just a thought, as you only get out of what your prepared to put in!!!!!

[Newt]

Interesting thoughts. :D

 

While I am firmly a RSA, I can see that the commercial folk would have some legitimate issues with that plan.

 

Quite aside from having that much money tied up and not making them much of a return, there is the issue of what, exactly, is causing the problem.

 

I think it is pretty certain that fish stocks are in decline. Total numbers probably and average size, certainly for most of the commercially exploited species.

 

While commercial catches of a species that is already in some trouble may well add to the trouble I really can't get a firm sense from what I read that fishing is a major cause of decline in many cases, much less THE CAUSE.

 

We might well be asking the commercial sector to manage the unmanageable.

 

Lets take a non-UK example that will hopefully avoid some of the sniping between Recreational and Sea anglers who are active on here. In the Pacific Ocean off the US west coast, albacore is a commercially & recreationally important species whose population is now in decline.

 

The RSA folk blame the US & Japanese commercials. The commercials seem to mostly blame each other. None of them have made much effort to blame the lack of the normal upwelling in the Pacific even though albacore thrived on taking the abundant prey from the front/warm side of the upwelling current.

 

Certainly fishing pressure has an effect but it really doesn't seem to be a major part of the cause unless I've totally missed reading about it.

 

So,

- is there anything people can do that will have any significant effect?

- if so, what is it and who should do it?

- if ocean conditions are responsible, is there any good reason to back down on the amount of allowed fishing?

- if the US does ease up, will the Japanese? The decline in catches by their long liners have mostly spurred them to develop more efficient gillnet fisheries.

[wurzel]

That was a very balanced view Newt, Well done.

 

I like this bit

Quote

We might well be asking the commercial sector to manage the unmanageable.

 

The doctor would never come up with that answer, he would be unemployed if he did.

Most work done by fisheries scientists just comfirms what the fishermen already know, we might not know why, especially when it comes down to fancy names for plankton and their movments , we do have to work with the results, often long before scientists ever get involved.

 

I have a more simplistic view.

Think of commercial fishermen as predators, with the expence of running a modern fishing vessel, very hungry preditors.

In the wild when there is an abundance of prey there is always an abundance of predators, it is well known that in times of plenty predators have more young some even breed twice a year, but as soon as there is a shortage of prey for what ever reason, drought ,freeze up, or as often is the case it just happens.

then inturn the predators decreace some will starve, some will relocate , some won't breed, at a stroke the level of preditors matches the level of prey.

I 've seen this mirrored several times with fishing, commercial and angling.

It will and has happened naturally.

 

This theroy only works when you realise that even modern fishing methods are not as effective as most anglers imagine, and the small amount of fish being recruited into the fishery is normaly enough to sustain the very small amount of boats working on it. The abunance of each species shows by the amount of boats working on it.

[wurzel]

Hello Fishingsfine

 

quote

So what do you suggest wurzel, no new measures? No limitation on cod fishing? Fishing more cod? Wipe out the cod as fast as possible so fishermen can continue fishing for nephrops and other species without being bothered by that stupid cod as a bycatch?

 

It's amazing so much energy you guys put into finding the 'right' explanation for the cod problems, without drawing the obvious conclusion 'well, the cod stocks are on the decrease for this or that reason(s), ergo fishing for cod must decrease, too.'

Well, I know commercial fishermen are more famous for their greed than their wits and logic, but please try for Christ's sake.

 

So do you know exactly how few boats are targeting cod?

Do you know any thing about extenstive trials to reduce discards in the prawn fishery (front page this weeks FN)

Do you know any thing about square mesh escape panels ?

do you know any thing about 120mm cod ends ?

do you know any thing about 140mm gill nets?

do you know any thing about large closed areas ( west coast )?

do you know any thing about restricted days at sea?

 

Give us a break for Christ's sake

 

Quote

I'll wait for the scientists verdict not yours.

 

I thought that was a scientists verdict.

[stavey]

Hello Fishingsfine

 

quote

So what do you suggest wurzel, no new measures? No limitation on cod fishing? Fishing more cod? Wipe out the cod as fast as possible so fishermen can continue fishing for nephrops and other species without being bothered by that stupid cod as a bycatch?

 

It's amazing so much energy you guys put into finding the 'right' explanation for the cod problems, without drawing the obvious conclusion 'well, the cod stocks are on the decrease for this or that reason(s), ergo fishing for cod must decrease, too.'

Well, I know commercial fishermen are more famous for their greed than their wits and logic, but please try for Christ's sake.

 

So do you know exactly how few boats are targeting cod?

Do you know any thing about extenstive trials to reduce discards in the prawn fishery (front page this weeks FN)

Do you know any thing about square mesh escape panels ?

do you know any thing about 120mm cod ends ?

do you know any thing about 140mm gill nets?

do you know any thing about large closed areas ( west coast )?

do you know any thing about restricted days at sea?

 

Give us a break for Christ's sake

 

Quote

I'll wait for the scientists verdict not yours.

 

I thought that was a scientists verdict.

 

Wurzel you are clued up on what you do i will grant you that, but with all respect your operation is very small time compared to these bigger trawlers and industrial fishing ferries.

 

Now what can you tell me about these other much more important, more likely damaging fishermen that ices or any of the scientists cant tell me or us? and not the global warming, i am fully aware of that, anything else that can prove they are not over fishing???????????

[Guest @Winter@]

Yes Wurzel it is A Scientists opinion. One you and the commercials have latched onto. The Propoganda machine of the commercial fishermen pump it out regulally in their publications. I dont know much about fisheries scientists, the area of science I studied was a very different one. But I do wonder, how the scientist you quote so regulally, is viewed by his colleagues. Is he pioneering and held in high regard, is his science objective or did he simply do what a lot do and make things fit into place so that his hypotheses checks out. I dont know the answer to my questions, I doubt you do either (even without the medication for your delusions of grandeur). I do remember Ben Bradshawe's words on the global warming theory only a couple of months ago - He said it (the global warming theory) is believed by a minority of mavericks and that to abanden the cod recovery plan now was not the right idea. I guess he meant you when he said that.

 

Yes wurzel it is the opinion of a scientist but I will wait and see what the majority of respected scientists say before I draw my conclusion.

[wurzel]

Hello Stavey

 

quote

Now what can you tell me about these other much more important, more likely damaging fishermen that ices or any of the scientists cant tell me or us? and not the global warming, i am fully aware of that, anything else that can prove they are not over fishing???????????

 

Thats easy read again.

 

So do you know exactly how few boats are targeting cod?

Do you know any thing about extenstive trials to reduce discards in the prawn fishery (front page this weeks FN)

Do you know any thing about square mesh escape panels ?

do you know any thing about 120mm cod ends ?

do you know any thing about 140mm gill nets?

do you know any thing about large closed areas ( west coast )?

do you know any thing about restricted days at sea?

 

Hello winter

quote

Yes wurzel it is the opinion of a scientist but I will wait and see what the majority of respected scientists say before I draw my conclusion.

 

Thats a lie, you've already drawn your own conclusion, mostley from pub gossip.

[Guest @Winter@]

Lol. Wurzel I dont drink mate so I dont do pubs nor their gossip . I do have an opinion but it is not fixed. If the scientists at ICES and CEFAS and whoever else is used say look forget the cod, its not overfishing, fishing has no effect on cod stocks then my view point will change. As im sure your aware I have said on many occasions I believe global warming is a factor in this but by no means the biggest and only factor. To me Global warming is simply making the effects of overfishing worse. We can reduce fishing effort tomorrow but reversing global warming may take a while longer, if its possible at all.

 

I think we know each others view points by now and I dont see any reason to go round and round in circles again. Plus I'm off to watch match of the day.