Canoe access poll on BBC

[jimpy0]

ok fine

so another balanced debate

[David McCraw]

But what's to stop an "unqualified numpty" (or several) from getting in a boat, and paddling off? Do you propose some kind of instruction, with a certificate of competence, before a person could obtain a license, for a boat?

 

As far as I'm aware, there aren't any regulations on canoe hire actually... to answer your question, there is nothing stopping someone hiring a canoe and vandalising the environment - you'd think getting a hefty fine from a baliff might do the trick though!

 

 

And I still don't know why canoeists shout at each other!

 

I get about a hundred days paddling in a year, all over Scotland (and abroad) and can't say I've noticed any predeliction for shouting, myself (except when necessary to make oneself heard, which is rarely going to be an environment you'd see anglers in).

 

As for the non tidal waters, unfortunately us anglers got there first, and it is not in our best interests to relinquish our hold.

 

Quite. I haven't met any canoeists who are trying to argue that anglers having to share is something you are going to welcome with open arms. Inevitably, sharing results in less for yourself - this one of the few honest arguments I've seen against fairer access, and one that I cannot rebut.

 

I still intend to campaign for wider access to our river heritage than the 1m rod licence holders though.

 

 

Hire craft are to be licenced and it would seem strange if a tippy canoe is exempt from various safety requirements whilst a stable motor boat is not.

 

Safety requirements like what? Canoeing is an assumed risk sport - this is a bit like shouting for iron regulation of hire bikes because people might fall off (true enough).

 

Things like wearing a helmet and buoyancy aid, and suitable clothing are already mandated by the BCU and every club I've heard of; nobody is going to cry if hire companies start mandating common sense too.

[David McCraw]

If you've read through the thread, then you'll have noticed that answers come to selected questions only.

 

I didn't bother answering because the answers can already be found in the discussion, or are common sense!

 

Just to keep you happy:

 

is the canoe v angler all year round or just seasonal[holidays] and regional as i am not aware of any probs on the rivers near me

possibly a stoopid question but could you fish from a canoe on a club or syndicate water without having to pay dues as you are not using the banking

with regards canals what is the difference between canoists and barges with regards disturbing swims and forcing anglers to bring in their lines

 

1. Canoeists paddle when it is wet - usually Oct/Nov - Mar (for me), possibly other times in big spates. Day trippers probably only in summer, but then they'd be covered by minimum level regulations or whatever...

2. Are people allowed to shoot grouse because they are on the moor 'as ramblers'? No, and similarly people who jump in canoes won't be allowed to fish.

3. I'm a whitewater paddler and have never been on a canal. Since canoeists already buy licences from the waterway authorities for canal use, I don't see where this comes into the discussion?

[Peter Waller]

Re safety measures and hire craft, the Broads comes under the heading of the Port Marine Safety mandate. In response to that the Broads Authority is seeking, via an act of parliament, to licence hire craft. This could be interesting as the Broads Authority is always rabbitting on about canoes! A few years ago a day boat capsized on the Broads and since then the Authority has been pushing for control of hire craft, e.g. stability testing. I rarely fall over in my canoe but no way could I claim that it is stable!! By the way, my first canoe was a PB11, a Percy Blandford design, long, long time ago, and I could stand up in that.

 

The canoes for hire on the Broads are the usual Coleman Canadians, but the question of safety regarding hire canoes does raise a few interesting questions. Seen from a logical standpoint there could be problems. I sit on the Broads Authority and this is one of those interesting questions that has no straightforward answers.

 

Re licences, yes, the dreaded BCU block licence agreement. Maybe a few angling and sailing clubs should try that one!

 

Perhaps white water canoeists are a quiet bunch, no white water on the Broads.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Peter Waller

[David McCraw]

A few years ago a day boat capsized on the Broads and since then the Authority has been pushing for control of hire craft, e.g. stability testing. I rarely fall over in my canoe but no way could I claim that it is stable!!

 

It's all relative, of course. Your canoe is certainly unstable compared with an aircraft carrier! Compared to your canoe (whatever model it is), either of my kayaks are extremely unstable - however, I don't think of them as 'unstable' (with ominous negative undertones) any more than I would call my unicycle 'unstable'.

 

Not that worrying about the stability of unicycles isn't worthy cause, it's just that, well.. they are have inherent stability constraints, just like canoes.

 

If it was easy, everybody could do it

 

The canoes for hire on the Broads are the usual Coleman Canadians, but the question of safety regarding hire canoes does raise a few interesting questions. Seen from a logical standpoint there could be problems. I sit on the Broads Authority and this is one of those interesting questions that has no straightforward answers.

 

Certainly the wearing of basic safety gear ought to be a condition of hire, that would be a big positive step and (surely) laudable by all. We are digressing a little though (no doubt the BCU will provide expert testimony anyway).

[Mike Connor]

This is what it looks like when canoeists monopolise a pool;

http://www.gsm-kanu.de/show_photo.php?getd...et=12&length=12

 

This is what tripper paddlers look like, and they arrive in hordes usually.

http://www.firmen-ausfluege.de/Firmen/Bild...s/preview14.jpg

 

In two separate work parties on Saturday and Sunday in winter on the Seeve, 20 volunteers from the angling club gathered four tons of sundry litter from the banks, and recovered a large number of bottles and various other materials from the river proper.

 

These actions are carried out every year. I have yet to see a paddler engaged in such operations. I have seen quite a few flinging their rubbish around though.

 

The story is the same in quite a few places.

 

TL

MC

[David McCraw]

This is what it looks like when canoeists monopolise a pool;

This is what tripper paddlers look like, and they arrive in hordes usually.

 

So can I have a link saying "this is what the self-proclaimed champions of the river environment are really like?"

 

I haven't dredged up isolated incidents and tried to apply them to your whole group. Who knows- when I lose my strength, I may well take up angling to stay around the river (I'm told there is some fairly good fishing to be had up here). It doesn't appeal to me at the moment, but I don't have anything at all against the sport.

 

The photos of a 'monopolised pool' certainly look bad, but it's impossible to judge without a context. In France, anglers have exclusive access in the morning and evening, and canoeists (non-exclusive) access during the day. Lots of boats on the water shouldn't be a problem.

 

After all, I could have a photo of a singler angler with the caption "anglers monopolise entire river".

 

In two separate work parties on Saturday and Sunday in winter on the Seeve, 20 volunteers from the angling club gathered four tons of sundry litter from the banks, and recovered a large number of bottles and various other materials from the river proper.

 

These actions are carried out every year. I have yet to see a paddler engaged in such operations. I have seen quite a few flinging their rubbish around though.

 

Mike, you do yourself little credit. I am sure that some people who get in canoes throw litter away, but to imply that getting into a canoe transforms people into litter louts is hard to believe. Does that apply to cyclists? Ramblers? Golfers? Strange phenomenon, to say the least!

 

Anglers are not perfect either, but as I said, I wouldn't use that to suggest that you should be banned on swan protection grounds...

 

You also seem surprised that canoeists, whilst effectively banned from most rivers, aren't seen alongside anglers cleaning up those same stretches. It doesn't come as much of a surprise to me (although I have pointed out many times that joint organisation of river clean-ups would certainly be on the table in access negotiations).

[Mike Connor]

So can I have a link saying "this is what the self-proclaimed champions of the river environment are really like?"

 

MIKE> We are not self-proclaimed, we are de-facto the champions of the river environment. Indeed, where I live we are obliged by law to be so, as we would otherwise lose our leases. I have plenty of photos and other evidence proving that as well. The photos I gave were chosen precisely because they were taken on the river I know best, and which I served for a very long time.MIKE

 

I haven't dredged up isolated incidents and tried to apply them to your whole group. Who knows- when I lose my strength, I may well take up angling to stay around the river (I'm told there is some fairly good fishing to be had up here). It doesn't appeal to me at the moment, but I don't have anything at all against the sport.

 

MIKE> What I posted is not an example of an isolated incident, it is now more or less permanently the case. May be of interest to learn that after being a member of the club which leases that river, which incidentally as part of its basic mandate is obliged by law to protect the environment, for over twenty years, putting in more hours of work than I care to remember, often under difficult conditions, and at freezing temperatures, paying yearly subscriptions of over 700 Euros, studying and gaining certificates in quite a number of disciplines, on my own time, and at my own expense, and serving as a committee officer for a very long time. I finally gave up and packed it in last year. Due to paddlers, who pay nothing, and do nothing except damage, it is now unfishable. If you wish to even attempt refuting what I say, you will have to do a lot more homework than you have yet done, and doubtless to your extreme chagrin, you will then discover that it is irrefutable, as it is simply the truth. MIKE

 

The photos of a 'monopolised pool' certainly look bad, but it's impossible to judge without a context. In France, anglers have exclusive access in the morning and evening, and canoeists (non-exclusive) access during the day. Lots of boats on the water shouldn't be a problem.

 

MIKE> How many photos would you like? I have plenty, and there are thousands on the web. All "isolated incidents" I suppose? That particular photo is not even a particularly bad case. MIKE

 

After all, I could have a photo of a singler angler with the caption "anglers monopolise entire river".

Mike, you do yourself little credit. I am sure that some people who get in canoes throw litter away, but to imply that getting into a canoe transforms people into litter louts is hard to believe. Does that apply to cyclists? Ramblers? Golfers? Strange phenomenon, to say the least!

 

MIKE> I am not here to do myself credit, I am here to make sure that UK anglers don´t make any silly mistakes, and give you any ground whatsoever until such time as you agree to sensible regulations and controls. It is basically no skin off my nose, I have not lived in the UK for over thirty years. Here, where paddling is banned, we have no litter. Where it is allowed we are practically wallowing in it. What conclusion would you draw?MIKE

 

Anglers are not perfect either, but as I said, I wouldn't use that to suggest that you should be banned on swan protection grounds...

 

MIKE> You just used it. Accidents happen, and some anglers are not as conscientious as they ought to be? So what else is new? It has nothing whatsoever to do with allowing free access to a massive horde of vandals and litter louts, who have no respect whatever for the countryside. MIKE

 

You also seem surprised that canoeists, whilst effectively banned from most rivers, aren't seen alongside anglers cleaning up those same stretches. It doesn't come as much of a surprise to me (although I have pointed out many times that joint organisation of river clean-ups would certainly be on the table in access negotiations).

 

MIKE> They are not banned here, they enjoy more or less free access. They are not seen at all helping to clean up. They merely wish to use the environment, they appear to have little interest in protecting it.

 

You have not brought a single sensible argument to support your case. You have attacked anglers, declared that you will use civil disobedience as a tool to blackmail people into giving you what you want for free, make unreasonable demands, and also insist that you know all the answers, which you quite patently do not. Indeed, you do not even know most of the basic facts.

 

Based on that performance, I don´t think there is much to fear. At least anybody who reads these threads is forewarned. Whether they act on the information provided is their own affair.

 

End of discussion for me.

 

MC

Edited May 10, 2006 by Mike Connor

[Croix]

On small rivers, paddlers are only interested in access during the winter months when there is sufficient rainfall to render them paddleable, i.e. outside the fishing season.

 

Richard,

 

I'm not sure which season you're refering to but the coarse angling season on rivers runs from mid June through to mid March. I think the game season is approx March/April through to October/November(ish).

 

Whilst I support greater access for all water users I don't think there are any months when the rivers don't have fishermen on the banks.

 

*Edit* I see this has already been mentioned earlier, sorry for repeating it. Must read more carefully.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Croix

[David McCraw]

Mike,

 

I don't know enough about the German access situation to refute your claims. I can say that recreational access is permitted in most European countries - yet in all the years I have been going out there, I have never experienced anything like the mass environmental damage you describe. Many of those rivers are carrying thousands, even tens of thousands of descents a year yet litter was vanishingly rare, and anglers plentiful (and no, there weren't enough anglers to be cleaning up tons of litter every night ).

 

Although I am willing to accept that the German environment has been destroyed by a "massive horde of vandals and litter louts, who have no respect whatever for the countryside", I can't understand why, for example, the Austrian rivers I have paddled were far from being open sewers (if anything, they were cleaner than the ones I paddle here). The upper stretches of the Inn, for instance, were absolutely sublime. The same applies for the many rivers in Italy, France and Spain I have paddled.

 

I have put out feelers for German canoeists who will no doubt struggle to explain themselves. Would you care to name this river which is now an environmental wasteland? I will, certainly, be chagrined if I discover they have destroyed it.

 

You describe a very clear cut situation where canoeing is directly linked to environmental destruction - yet canoeing is permitted all across Scotland. Of course, I'm not trying to deny that littering does happen - it's a sad fact of life. I just can't reconcile your near proclamations of doom with my own extensive experience of a country where the public has a right of access to enjoy the rivers.

 

Many of my favourites are massively paddled by the English over holidays and long weekends (probably the only people who come to Scotland in winter!) and yet there is no problem. If I am on the river for around a hundred days of the year, you'd think I'd see at least *some* of this destruction you guarantee.

 

Yet apparently, if those same canoeists were given permission to paddle in England and Wales, they would instantly go on a rampage of environmental damage?

 

Forgive me if I find that too hard to believe.

 

I agree that this discussion has run its course.