Today's Grand Prix

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

I almost felt sorry for ol' Cobblers today. Almost. There's no doubt that he's one of the truly great drivers, but I've never been able to warm to him. Mind you, wouldn't it be a surprise if Massa and Alonso were somehow to have a little coming together in Brazil?

 

Shoemaker ruined his own reputation by cheating........stupid thing is, he didnt need to do it, but its surprising how many sporting greats have felt the need to cheat!

 

If I was shumi this coming race, I'd be watching for fisichella trying to knock my front wing off ;-)

 

A lot depends on qualifying though of course as you cant take anyone off if they are scampering off into the sunset!

 

Been a real good season though.......I've enjoyed it immensely.

 

Alonso......double world champion.......go do it lad!!!!

[Mat Hillman]

Shoemaker ruined his own reputation by cheating........stupid thing is, he didnt need to do it, but its surprising how many sporting greats have felt the need to cheat!

 

Thats kind of my thoughts on him too, he is obviously one of the best drivers ever, and can win without cheating and the dubious team tactics he has used in both teams he won with.

 

A genius, but sadly a flawed one.

 

Anyone else think he doesn't really look ready to retire? I've got a sneaky feeling we may see a "comeback" in a year or two!

 

Mat

[UK-Fishing-Tackle.co.uk]

He'll go to indycar if he goes anywhere for a money season - you'll not see him in an F1 car again! Mansell I think took indycar on his first attempt (a feat not achieved often it has to be said) -

 

F1 sadly though isn't about skill - there are a great many websites around which discuss the Schumacher/Senna/Prost etc arguments to the death, and the general conclusion (most support) is that Micheal Schumacher is very lucky in that he has had consistently good cars (he wouldn't win in a slower car such as a Red Bull, or an inconsistent one such as the Mercs of the last few years). He isn't generally accepted as being the best overtaker, and indeed his history dictates that many of his retirements have come through contact with other cars. He lacks the flair of some drivers, the risk taking elements of others, and perhaps (in fairness) a bit of character. The bizzare thing with F1 is the constructors is looked upon as the 'second' prize when in truth the sport is THAT team orientated the drivers are only completing a small proportion of the work involved in winning a race!

 

That said, if you are in front and can concentrate at the speeds they do without really racing anyone, then that is definitely a skill - and most people agree he is certainly one of the better wet race drivers to have ever raced F1. The debate on the best F1 driver will always be overshadowed by the sheer divide in quality and reliability between the vehicles, and the Senna/Prost/Schumacher debate is entirely irrelevant. The only thing I can say with absolute certainty is that Schumacher is a class above Barrichello and Massa because they are the only two he has supposedly competed with on fair terms (on the basic assumption the cars are equal which may not be the case!).

Edited October 10, 2006 by UK-Fishing-Tackle.co.uk

[Mat Hillman]

The only thing I can say with absolute certainty is that Schumacher is a class above Barrichello and Massa because they are the only two he has supposedly competed with on fair terms (on the basic assumption the cars are equal which may not be the case!).

 

You really think he is competeing with his teammates on equal terms???

 

His teammates are there to help him, they are the only drivers on the grid paid to try to come second in every race!

 

Take a look at the practice reports on the friday/saturday morning sessions and you'll see just one of the dubious team tactics ferrari use - the number two driver does almost all the tyre evaluation and set up testing while MS saves his fresh tyres for qualifying and the race. At the last GP MS had enough brand new tyres left to put new ones on at every pit stop - Massa had to make do with racing on tyres that had already been used in practice/qualifying, which means he would be up to 1.5 seconds a lap slower at the start of each stint after the pitstops!

 

I won't even mention how many times his teammates have been ordered to pull over and hand him the lead of a race!

 

Mat - not a shoemaker fan

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

He'll go to indycar if he goes anywhere for a money season - you'll not see him in an F1 car again! Mansell I think took indycar on his first attempt (a feat not achieved often it has to be said) -

 

F1 sadly though isn't about skill - there are a great many websites around which discuss the Schumacher/Senna/Prost etc arguments to the death, and the general conclusion (most support) is that Micheal Schumacher is very lucky in that he has had consistently good cars (he wouldn't win in a slower car such as a Red Bull, or an inconsistent one such as the Mercs of the last few years). He isn't generally accepted as being the best overtaker, and indeed his history dictates that many of his retirements have come through contact with other cars. He lacks the flair of some drivers, the risk taking elements of others, and perhaps (in fairness) a bit of character. The bizzare thing with F1 is the constructors is looked upon as the 'second' prize when in truth the sport is THAT team orientated the drivers are only completing a small proportion of the work involved in winning a race!

 

That said, if you are in front and can concentrate at the speeds they do without really racing anyone, then that is definitely a skill - and most people agree he is certainly one of the better wet race drivers to have ever raced F1. The debate on the best F1 driver will always be overshadowed by the sheer divide in quality and reliability between the vehicles, and the Senna/Prost/Schumacher debate is entirely irrelevant. The only thing I can say with absolute certainty is that Schumacher is a class above Barrichello and Massa because they are the only two he has supposedly competed with on fair terms (on the basic assumption the cars are equal which may not be the case!).

 

Although I am in no way a schumi fan, I think you are being just a bit unfair with your remarks.

 

When he first went to Ferrari they couldnt win the local destruction derby but he got the right people around him and built the team and car around him.......now thats just as much part of the skill of racing as anything else. He also put in far more hours behind the scenes than most drivers.........a true workaholic by all accounts. He didnt just accept the car dumped in front of him...he honed it to how HE wanted it.

 

Remember too the early ferrari had to be wrestled around the circuit but he did it and won world title in it......in other words it wasnt always the classy machine it is today.

 

As for being the best overtaker.............yep I'll give you that, but how many times did he approach the pit stop window 10 seconds behind his competitor only to emerge in front after the pit stops leaving us scratching our heads wondering just how he managed to do it. In one season I recall he seemed to do it at virtually every race! That kind of strategic pace setting is all part of being a classy driver.

 

You see, being the best isnt just about being able to scream down the inside of someone outbreaking yourself in kamikaze moves into chicanes............Shumi, like it or not (and it pains me to say it) is the best all round package out there.

 

My only final remark is I hope and pray for a CLEAN race in brazil (unless of course fizzi happens to knock shumis front wing off int he first corner!!!)

[UK-Fishing-Tackle.co.uk]

Well, if I am not giving schumi enough credit I suspect you may be giving him rather too much

 

For a start the technology involved in a tyre alone involves hundreds of men, several companies and suppliers (at the raw material level), and thousands of hours of testing - Schumacher himself has little to do with the development or testing until the very final stages, and I suspect his own understanding of tyre rubbers and polymers is a drop in the ocean compared to the techies at Bridgestone and Michelin. Engine development, gearbox, aerodynamics, electrics and the rest are ALL equally as specialised (if not more so), so the claim that he 'honed' the car to his liking is something I am sure both him and ferrari would like us to believe, but in reality is absolute rubbish.

 

He drives the car put in front of him to a certain extent - and whilst as part of a team they will value his professional opinion on the cars handling etc, he is a driver, and he has superiors. F1 is more of a marketing exercise than anything else. If he was involved in 1% of the total man hours put into a car I'd be amazingly surprised, and I suspect the true reality is he is involved in much much less! Reliability - one of his biggest advantages (always helps if you don't break down), is certainly nothing to do with him at all - one could argue that his driving style may well be sympathetic to the engine, but in truth the lack of engine failiure in what - 5 years - is nigh on unprecedented in any form of motor racing!

 

Next - the pit situation for overtaking is (in the main) stategic planning over dazzling speed. I've not seen (many) races where an amazing outlap or inlap REALLY makes the difference - at the end of the day you can only gain two to three seconds even if you pull the biggest rabbit out of the hat in that scenario. No - the trick is stopping later (i.e less fuel to add = shorter stop), having a good pit stop, avoiding traffic in and out etc - something which FERRARI have done well. This is a fluid situation and one which I again am sure Schumacher has (reasonably) little to do with during the race.

 

In terms of car importance - drivers cannot win without the car - but certainly some cars can win without the driver - Raikonen may well prove that next year!

[captain cojones]

schumacher has been bombing around the circuit at jerez today, according to our papers.DO hope he doesnt sprain his ankle getting out his car!

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

Well, if I am not giving schumi enough credit I suspect you may be giving him rather too much

 

For a start the technology involved in a tyre alone involves hundreds of men, several companies and suppliers (at the raw material level), and thousands of hours of testing - Schumacher himself has little to do with the development or testing until the very final stages, and I suspect his own understanding of tyre rubbers and polymers is a drop in the ocean compared to the techies at Bridgestone and Michelin. Engine development, gearbox, aerodynamics, electrics and the rest are ALL equally as specialised (if not more so), so the claim that he 'honed' the car to his liking is something I am sure both him and ferrari would like us to believe, but in reality is absolute rubbish.

 

He drives the car put in front of him to a certain extent - and whilst as part of a team they will value his professional opinion on the cars handling etc, he is a driver, and he has superiors. F1 is more of a marketing exercise than anything else. If he was involved in 1% of the total man hours put into a car I'd be amazingly surprised, and I suspect the true reality is he is involved in much much less! Reliability - one of his biggest advantages (always helps if you don't break down), is certainly nothing to do with him at all - one could argue that his driving style may well be sympathetic to the engine, but in truth the lack of engine failiure in what - 5 years - is nigh on unprecedented in any form of motor racing!

 

Next - the pit situation for overtaking is (in the main) stategic planning over dazzling speed. I've not seen (many) races where an amazing outlap or inlap REALLY makes the difference - at the end of the day you can only gain two to three seconds even if you pull the biggest rabbit out of the hat in that scenario. No - the trick is stopping later (i.e less fuel to add = shorter stop), having a good pit stop, avoiding traffic in and out etc - something which FERRARI have done well. This is a fluid situation and one which I again am sure Schumacher has (reasonably) little to do with during the race.

 

In terms of car importance - drivers cannot win without the car - but certainly some cars can win without the driver - Raikonen may well prove that next year!

 

 

You may want to watch one or two of the documentaries which are doing the rounds........by all accounts ferrari OWE their success to Schumacher and his dedication to excellence, not the other way around. The proof is in the pudding.......he was already a champion when he moved to ferrari and they couldnt win anything and the car was a dog! All the pundits said he was mad to go there but HE considered it a challenge to turn it around.

 

The rest is history.

 

You say a pitstop is all about who stays out longer......well thats true to a point, but its also to do with positioning oneself in traffic before or after a stop, making the most use of those extra laps etc.those are all matters which to a point you have some control over and therefore how you deal with them I class as part of the skill of being a racing driver.

 

The same can be said of the tyre, aerodynamic and other specialist packages.......he doesnt need to know the ins and outs, but he needs to know who does and to surround himself with those people, and when he has done that he then goes on to explain how the car doesnt feel quite right and work with them in great detail to get it to work. By all accounts shumacker is peerless in this regard, where other drivers will simply say the car understeers or something and leave it to the boffins to sort out.

 

Ask yourself this............why are teams like williams and mclaren not on the pace anymore? Lets face it they always had the best cars and quality drivers.........could it be that the best driver sucks in the best associated talents leaving the other teams light on talented engineers? Tell me, dont you included this as talent on behalf of the driver, because I do! Getting in the car on a sunday afternoon is but a tiny percentage of th qhole puzzle, and IMO Schumacher has greater control of all the other bits of the puzzle than most the other drivers, and thats what makes him the best.

 

I still hate the bugger though!

Edited October 11, 2006 by Brumagem Phil

[UK-Fishing-Tackle.co.uk]

One possible view maybe, but lets consider that Schumacher went to Ferrari he took quite a bit of benneton (and the rest) know how with him (fact), and Benneton were considered to be a team seriously punching over their weight at the time. Many big players who flocked to Ferrari did so for money - not because Michael Schumacher was there - who was considered a talented, but certainly Senna level greatness at the time - more of a thinking mans Nigel Mansell.

 

Ferrari didn't go out and buy Michael Schumacher in 1996 - they went out an bought a team, and spent megabucks doing so, increasing their investment in F1 several times over. This would have happened whether Michael left Benneton or not, and we could just as easily be talking about the 'great' Eddie Irvine should things have panned out differently. Yes, Ferrari was rebuilding, but everyone accepts they spent considerably more in 1996/1997 than any other team by a country mile. Also lets not forget Michael Schumacher isn't stupid - he didn't leave a team winning F1 races to 'manage' a knackered formula 1 team (in fact Ross Brawn did if you want to be picky). Ferrari were race competative from the off by the way (third in 1996) meaning they had quite a bit of involvement before Michael ever saw the car!!

 

I am sure he does have a lot of involvement, but more than any other driver does? Michael has become a bigger 'brand' than Ferrari itself, and as such is handled as a financial asset or entity. It pays for him to be seen as the saviour of Ferrari (and F1). Any documentary, DVD or interview can say anything you want it to say, but if I was in his position, earning 50 million plus per year for driving a car, I wouldn't be working that many late nights....The proof will come in Raikkonen of course, who comes across as a 'get in and go' kind of person (certainly a man of few words!)

 

If you gave me a billion (or took one yourself) we could both run a team to win an F1 championship. Yes, changes are afoot over the next few years to try and level the playing field, but at the end of the day regulation only forces the technological developments to become even more 'slight and complex' and the big boys will still rule.

[Guest Brumagem Phil]

Jackie Stewart's remarks today on Alonso's move to McLaren next year........

 

******Stewart: "You've got to have the car to do it with. Generally speaking, I think it's true to say Michael Schumacher re-shaped Ferrari and made the Ferrari the car it is today. "Without Michael Schumacher that would not have happened. Whether Alonso has that same skill is another matter." *******

 

Pretty much echos my remarks wouldnt you say?

 

Good luck to Alonso tomorrow................gooooo on me lad, whoop that krauts ass!!!

Edited October 22, 2006 by Brumagem Phil