The case for Treble hooks.

[Dick Dastardly]

Interesting thread and comments!

 

Personally I loathe treble hooks.

 

I can see your point about penetration but to turn the argument on its head I often hear people saying barbless hooks are bad due to their ability to achieve deep penetration. As such I'd have thought maybe a heavier wire barbed large single may actually not penetrate as far as a finer wire treble.

 

I believe that due to the reason you state over large singles are even more dangerous if barbless

 

Secondly and most importantly I really really oppose the use of two sets of treble hooks as if the lower set finds a hookhold in the scissors then the top set can be flailing around the pikes head and eyes.

 

Ive found this happens quite a lot with "hair rigged" baits.In theory this would be a problem but in practice you dont often see it with a normal snap tackle though

 

Finally I hate the fact that anyone can buy a set of snaptackle and go piking with inadequate tackle and put the fish the catch in danger. In inexperienced hands I would argue a large single hook would lead to less pike deaths than trebles.

 

I think its a shame that people can go fishing for pike without the proper equipment and knowledge full stop! Several clubs now insist that members attend "Pike Teach ins" which cover these issues before they can fish for Pike

 

Please don't take this the wrong way pike anglers, I'm interested in this discussion and the facts behind pike safety, I'd be very interested to hear what Steve Burke thinks.

 

I know Steve has issues with large barbless singles for Perch for much the same reasons as ive mentioned.But Im sure he will add his own veiws.

 

I don't like the argument that using treble hooks leads to more hook-ups as fishing is not about catching and landing as many fish as possible, its about catching them and then releasing them in as close to perfect condition as one realistically can. I don't think treble hooks fit with that ethos but I'm willing to be enlightened.

 

I was actually going to raise this point in my initial post. The point I was trying to make about the trebles being more effective on hook ups than singles was not so much made from a point of catching more fish but more that this higher sucsess rate would stop people leaving runs longer in order to improve their catch rate.

 

Rich

 

Barry,I totally agree with what you say about the "mechanics" of using singles.The "not striking" bit is also as Im sure you are aware very true with the circle/kahle hooks that Ive been experimenting with.Much the reason why Ive found large circles to work well on spoons ie you just keep winding! You are also quite right I to found that the best way to hook deadbaits with singles was through the eyes/nose.But this is part of the problem in that as the pike will always swallow (note swallow not necesarily "take") a bait head first we are automaticly putting the hook in the position that potentially is the most damaging.

 

Bingo Like I said it has now become quite common practice to remove over large singles and replace with trebles on lures like Bulldawgs and Shads.With the Bulldawg its just a case of cutting the dorsal single off flush with the body.This doesnt seem to affect the lures action.With Shads (Im hoping Peter Waller will coment here as I know he is a huge fan of soft plastic Shads) it much depends on the size of the lure to how big the single is.Also to a certain extent I would think that when buying your own "unrigged" shads the size would dictate how and with what trpe hook you would rig them with.I only use large (7-8") shads and as such use two trebles.

 

One thing that was disscused/sugested recently was instead of removing the large single on Bulldawgs was to just bend the point down towards the body to avoid deep penetration. I personally havnt tried this (prefering to just remove the point) and have worries that it is certainly not going to hook up but might hinder the other hooks going in ie stop the fish closing down on the plastic firmly? It aint doing nothing so why not remove it alltogether? but as ive said Ive not tried it.

 

EDIT NOTE: Tim posted whilst i was replying so please excuse the repitition of some of the points!

Edited October 28, 2006 by BUDGIE

[Brian Carragher]

I would have thought that after some of the discussions on hooking fish and fish welfare and attitudes towards hooks this thread might have generated a lot more interest than it has so far.

[luckyjim]

I've caught a fair few pike (including several doubles) using size ten singles, whilst fishing for perch.

 

Maybe hit one bite in every two but all that are hooked are in the scissors or roof of the mouth, and easy to unhook. Even if a pike did swallow a size ten treble it would probably just digest it, or it would quicky rust away. Personally if I was a pike fisherman I'd just stick to these!

 

I guess it'd be hard to hook large baits, but with the method I've used (1-3 inch livebaits) just nick them through the top lip and it works a treat. Incidentally barbed seem to be better than barbless (especially for the big perch) because it doesn't penetrate quite as deeply into the fish. When I've used barbless (for perch) they tend to get jammed right into the bone and even seem to have even punctured organs if hooked at the back of the mouth (I think perch have organs quite far forward?).

 

Personally I think that loads of anglers go way overboard in terms of size and quantity of hooks. As someone mentioned its those ready made rigs with two trebles on a wire trace that astonish me. Thats the equivalent of 6 hooks - why not just use a speargun or chuck a grenade in the river

[Newt]

- why not just use a speargun or chuck a grenade in the river

 

Not now - weather is too cool. Those are better warm weather tactics.

[Kappa]

Personally I think that loads of anglers go way overboard in terms of size and quantity of hooks. As someone mentioned its those ready made rigs with two trebles on a wire trace that astonish me. Thats the equivalent of 6 hooks - why not just use a speargun or chuck a grenade in the river

 

My thoughts exactly (sorry pikers i know that isn't a popular view).

 

Rich

[Dick Dastardly]

Your points are very valid when discussing both 1"-3" baits and perch Jim. But for pike (both big and small) Ive found that a bait in the region of 8" is best. To fish either a dead or a live of anywhere near this size on a size 10 hook would be akin to side hooking an 18mm boillie with a size 22 hook!

 

I put it this way whats better for the pike 6 hooks that are less likely to cause damage or one big single that can either penetrate to deep and kill? Imagine a single hook that would be the "right" size for an 8" long bait when comparing a hook used for a single maggot.At least 8/0 maybe? look at how long the point on a hook that size is and how far that would penetrate? In fishing for all other species that we use single hooks for we always base the selection of hook size on bait size.

 

Richard,are you able to actually say why you are so against trebles,or is it just a general gut feeling?

Edited October 30, 2006 by BUDGIE

[Peter Sharpe]

Personally I think that loads of anglers go way overboard in terms of size and quantity of hooks. As someone mentioned its those ready made rigs with two trebles on a wire trace that astonish me. Thats the equivalent of 6 hooks - why not just use a speargun or chuck a grenade in the river

 

This is because in most cases only two of the hook points are sticking proud of the bait. Ideally, I would like to see a size 4 or 6 hook with a T bar soldered to the shank, to make the hook lie flat against the bait fish. You would also need an opposing hook to the exposed one for holding the bait on. This should be made of a much softer metal that could be bent under pressure from a pair of forceps. God knows what it would cost to produce such hooks but I would gladly buy them. Alternatively, the T bar and bait spike could be made separately, with an open collar that could be crimped onto a standard hook. I don't know if that would be sufficiently secure, but it might be worth a go.

While on the subject, I find double hooks with bends at 180 degree angles even more difficult to remove than trebles. Anything is better than those 6/0 trebles you see on some jerk baits though, of the kind that Batman uses to climb up skyscrapers.

[mark barrett]

Your points are very valid when discussing both 1"-3" baits and perch Jim. But for pike (both big and small) Ive found that a bait in the region of 8" is best. To fish either a dead or a live of anywhere near this size on a size 10 hook would be akin to side hooking an 18mm boillie with a size 22 hook!

 

I put it this way whats better for the pike 6 hooks that are less likely to cause damage or one big single that can either penetrate to deep and kill?

 

Richard,are you able to actually say why you are so against trebles,or is it just a general gut feeling?

 

 

its trebles all the way for me.

i make no apologies for it, nor do i need to look at other methods, because twenty years of pike fishiung with live and deadbaits has proved time and time again that its the safest and most practical way to fish.

invariably those that make ill informed stupid comments as regards grenades and spear guns are those that do not pike fish regularly, and know little of the mechanics of pike feeding.

[Kappa]

Richard,are you able to actually say why you are so against trebles,or is it just a general gut feeling?

 

Ok just a quick disclaimer so I don't get lynched: This is not aimed at anyone in particular or any group either.

 

As I mentioned earlier I don't agree with double hook rigs (i.e. two sets of trebles). The reason people use trebles is so that they can reliably hook pike when using large baits. I don't believe there is valid pike welfare reason behind the use of two hook rigs. If people would leave runs longer to make sure of a hooked pike with alternative rigs and potentially risk the pikes welfare then that is because they put catching fish above the fishes welfare and they are (if I put it politely as I can) bad people.

 

I guess I could almost live with a single treble hook as I can see the logic of your argument in this being less harmful than a bigger single hook when hooking, landing and unhooking pike.

 

However part of the problem I have is not the process of catching the pike (although I have seen treble hooks literally locked in a pikes mouth as all three points have found a hold) but what happens if the rig is lost.

 

Your average off the shelf trace has two sets of trebles on say a 20lb-25lb trace. I'd bet 95% of people using these traces use line that will break before the trace so if the fish gets snagged or the rig gets snagged then the trebles are left behind. I do not believe that a swallowed treble (with no strike or line tension) would be less harmful than a large single not least because there are 6 hook points on the treble trace. In the same way a discarded or lost treble trace would, I believe be much more dangerous to other wildlife than a single hook. For example if you snag your single hook rig (this could be when chub fishing) the point is buried in the snag and not a danger. However if the same happens with a two hook treble rig there are five hook points free that could pose a danger to wildlife don't forget the bait could still be attached and will attract fish and birds etc.

 

In short I think treble hooks are barbaric (I'm sorry but I do feel this strongly about this) but as there is no good alternative their use has not moved on from times when using a gaff etc was acceptable. Just because there is no good alternative does not mean you have to use trebles you could use smaller baits or fish for a different species.

 

Again I'm sure in the hands of very experienced anglers these risks are lower but in the vast majority of cases I think trebles are dangerous. I'm not saying singles are the answer, following your comments, and given the choice I'd prefer to spend the winter perch or chub fishing or reading a book.

 

Rich

[mark barrett]

Ok just a quick disclaimer so I don't get lynched: This is not aimed at anyone in particular or any group either.

 

As I mentioned earlier I don't agree with double hook rigs (i.e. two sets of trebles). The reason people use trebles is so that they can reliably hook pike when using large baits. I don't believe there is valid pike welfare reason behind the use of two hook rigs. If people would leave runs longer to make sure of a hooked pike with alternative rigs and potentially risk the pikes welfare then that is because they put catching fish above the fishes welfare and they are (if I put it politely as I can) bad people.

 

I guess I could almost live with a single treble hook as I can see the logic of your argument in this being less harmful than a bigger single hook when hooking, landing and unhooking pike.

 

However part of the problem I have is not the process of catching the pike (although I have seen treble hooks literally locked in a pikes mouth as all three points have found a hold) but what happens if the rig is lost.

 

Your average off the shelf trace has two sets of trebles on say a 20lb-25lb trace. I'd bet 95% of people using these traces use line that will break before the trace so if the fish gets snagged or the rig gets snagged then the trebles are left behind. I do not believe that a swallowed treble (with no strike or line tension) would be less harmful than a large single not least because there are 6 hook points on the treble trace. In the same way a discarded or lost treble trace would, I believe be much more dangerous to other wildlife than a single hook. For example if you snag your single hook rig (this could be when chub fishing) the point is buried in the snag and not a danger. However if the same happens with a two hook treble rig there are five hook points free that could pose a danger to wildlife don't forget the bait could still be attached and will attract fish and birds etc.

 

In short I think treble hooks are barbaric (I'm sorry but I do feel this strongly about this) but as there is no good alternative their use has not moved on from times when using a gaff etc was acceptable. Just because there is no good alternative does not mean you have to use trebles you could use smaller baits or fish for a different species.

 

Again I'm sure in the hands of very experienced anglers these risks are lower but in the vast majority of cases I think trebles are dangerous. I'm not saying singles are the answer, following your comments, and given the choice I'd prefer to spend the winter perch or chub fishing or reading a book.

 

Rich

 

to be honest richard, there are fewer things that i think that do angling as a whole such a disservice as an angler claiming that any legitimate method of catching fish as being barbaric.

by using such emotive terms about a method you clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding about, you do us all a disservice, because to an anti it makes absolutely no difference how many points that a hook has, one is too many.