Bass

[Steve Coppolo]

Hello Steve

 

No doubt you will have fishing like that again, but what I ment was were you catching a 3/4 pound fish every other cast as well,were there the same amount of very small bass in the river at the same time.

 

Hello Peter

 

No, not in the same numbers. We would always catch those small schoolies, but mostly at anchor. That's why I started drifting. There were no where near as many small schoolies as there are now, but there were always quite a few.

 

Changing the subject slightly, why do you think that the average size of Cod, as well as Bass, caught by anglers has dropped drastically over the last few years? Do you think there is a pattern forming?

Edited November 17, 2006 by Steve Coppolo

[Leon Roskilly]

why do you think that the average size of Cod, as well as Bass, caught by anglers has dropped drastically over the last few years? Do you think there is a pattern forming?

 

It's not just that the bigger fish are being taken, it could also be because destruction of fish carrying the 'large' gene, has lead to a genetic change of the fished populations, so that future generations will be permanently stunted.

 

 

Recent studies have shown that single traits such as body size, growth rate (Conover & Munch

2002), or age/size at maturity (Olsen et al. 2004) evolve rapidly in response to intense harvest mortality.

 

Because of genetic correlations, however, selective removal of large fish is likely to also cause indirect changes in numerous other traits (Lande & Arnold 1983).

 

Smaller adult body size, for example, may be correlated with earlier maturation, and reduced egg size (Trippel 1995), fecundity (Bobko & Berkeley 2003), larval growth and viability (Berkeley et al. 2004a,B ).

 

Such changes may accentuate the negative impacts of harvesting.

 

http://www.msrc.sunysb.edu/people/munchpdf...l06_EcolLet.pdf

 

 

It could be that what we think are codling or schoolies are actually mature fish which will not grow any larger :eek:

 

(It is well recognised that codling are maturing at a far earlier age, and smaller size, than was the case a couple of decades ago)

Edited November 17, 2006 by Leon Roskilly

[Puffin]

(It is well recognised that codling are maturing at a far earlier age, and smaller size, than was the case a couple of decades ago)

 

 

For Pete's sake! Don't tell the commercials that! they'll want a reduction in the Cod MLS too!

[wurzel]

Hello Peter

 

No, not in the same numbers. We would always catch those small schoolies, but mostly at anchor. That's why I started drifting. There were no where near as many small schoolies as there are now, but there were always quite a few.

 

Changing the subject slightly, why do you think that the average size of Cod, as well as Bass, caught by anglers has dropped drastically over the last few years? Do you think there is a pattern forming?

 

Hello Steve

 

So it is possible that the amount of small schoolies are having an effect on the amount of bigger bass on some of the inshore and estuary marks.

Funny you say that’s why you started drifting, I normally find it the other way round.

 

 

Is there ever a pattern to any thing to do with the sea, every year is different, I've never had two years the same.

 

Ok for this discussion just think of our area the Thames estuary.

 

We all agree that the reason for the huge year classes of bass 2002 and 3 and others above average were the result of mild winters and above average water temperatures, good for bass not good for cod.

 

Just think if it was the other way around like it was during the 60's, those cod would now be 5 years old

weighing 10lb plus with several other year classes coming on behind them, anglers would be happy bunnies dragging bin liners of cod up from the beaches every night.

 

But it wasn't good for cod, it was good for bass which are very slow growing, at 5 years old some have just managed 36 cm or a little over a pound in weight, like a good whisky you have to be patient with bass. hopefully in ten years time there will be a fare number of bigger bass about.

The reason the average size of bass anglers catch is smaller is because they are only 5 years old.

It was not the best year I've had for bass but what I caught on me rod, would you class my trolling arms as fishing rods? if so I caught a fare few bigger bass further off, as you saw.

 

As for cod, they just aren't doing very well at the moment, we are getting pockets of codling inshore which are nursery areas for cod as well as bass, the bigger fish seem to stay further off, what there is of them,

although when conditions do become favourable, like last spring there were better signs of bigger fish showing up, we caught them in nets but the long liners or the anglers caught very few, perhaps it was because they were feeding off the bottom on herring.

 

Two chilly winters (not cold) and cod are showing a bit of a recovery, I hear that bass had 0 recruitment, so the cycle go on.

 

Bugger this is getting hard work!!

[Leon Roskilly]

Just think if it was the other way around like it was during the 60's, those cod would now be 5 years old

weighing 10lb plus with several other year classes coming on behind them, anglers would be happy bunnies dragging bin liners of cod up from the beaches every night.

 

 

There was a very good spawning of cod in 1996, and anglers will remember the subsequent proliferation of tiny codling being caught everywhere.

 

So, why weren't we dragging bin liners of cod up the beaches a couple of years later?

 

The answer is well known.

 

As soon as a proportion of that abundant year class reached mls (quite a way below spawning age), the cod were heavily targeted, even though the discards of smaller fish just below mls was just over 50%.

 

Very few of that year class survived to reach maturity, or to provide good sport for anglers.

 

And CEFAS data shows the same patteren year on year.

 

Whenever cod have a reasonable spawning and year 1, or even year 2 codling are abundant, by year 4 those year classes are all but gone.

 

The international catch is mainly of 1- to 3-year-old cod.

 

http://www.cefas.co.uk/Fisheries/publicati...codnorthsea.pdf

 

 

Hopefully the cod recovery plan, the reduction in the fishing fleet, and effort not directly put on cod these days will change that cycle of destruction and allow a decent year class of cod to spawn itself and to begin to re-populate.

 

The danger being that effort on other species where cod is a significant bycatch will still do crioticaldamage to any recovery prospects for cod.

 

And no, the cod population in the warmer South West still shows no sign of heading north in response to global warming!

 

 

Hopes of big bass inshore based on the 2002/03 year class are also likely to be dashed due to the stock being trimmed at just 36cm.

 

Proposals to protect those particular year classes to 45cm, when they would have also had the opportunity to spawn themselves have also been dashed and even after next April those fish will still be taken at just 4ocm, still short of when they will have had the opportunity to spawn.

 

(The catching sector is campaigning hard to overturn the change to a 40cm mls for bass, so even that meaningless protection is not assured)

[frankthebass]

Quote Wurzel:So it is possible that the amount of small schoolies are having an effect on the amount of bigger bass on some of the inshore and estuary marks.

 

There are many schoolies in our estuaries now (even in mid November), but if previouse year classes had not been decreased dramatically by the inshore commercial effort there would be more better fish to.

 

What ever arument any commercial fisherman uses the is no getting away from one fact. That is that every bass landed by anyone is one less bass in the sea, its also one less bass thats going to reproduce its self. This wouldnt matter to much if it was on a substainable basis. But commercials have fished bass at 36cm so efficiently for so long that they have taken so many fish. No commercial can deny that any bass he land are not less bass in the sea and are not less bass that would of reproduced them selves.

[frankthebass]

All the bass that I helped catch on the Kentish Knock in 1994 were 1989 fish, most were 38cm to 45cm. We averaged 30 stone a day with my best day 65 stone (the boats best day was 150 stone).

So 35 stone of bass at 14lb to the stone and around 7 fish per stone, that 245 bass per day. That was probably about 3 days a week for about three months, as weather restricts fishing out there, itd ither to rough or two calm.

 

None of those fish will be able to reproduce themselves and are all less fish in our seas.

 

Wurzel I know you said you was leaving those fish alone to grow a bit bigger lets put it anouther way. At the time we was geting around 4.50 per pound, thats 65 quid a stone, thats 2205 quid per trip. You must be well ritch to turn that down mate.

[wurzel]

Hello Leon

 

I'm tired, hungry and need at least 4 hours kip before Setting off in the morning, so a quick reply.

 

 

QUOTE(wurzel @ Nov 18 2006, 12:11 AM)

Just think if it was the other way around like it was during the 60's, those cod would now be 5 years old

weighing 10lb plus with several other year classes coming on behind them, anglers would be happy bunnies dragging bin liners of cod up from the beaches every night.

 

 

 

There was a very good spawning of cod in 1996, and anglers will remember the subsequent proliferation of tiny codling being caught everywhere.

 

So, why weren't we dragging bin liners of cod up the beaches a couple of years later?

 

One good spawning year in ten is not enough. plus as I said the bigger fish just don't seem to come inshore these days, We done alright further off for several years, as did the charter boats that fished offshore.

 

The answer is well known.

 

I doubt that.

 

 

As soon as a proportion of that abundant year class reached mls (quite a way below spawning age), the cod were heavily targeted, even though the discards of smaller fish just below mls was just over 50%.

 

 

Not in our fishery it did not, I am not so sure that discards were that high in most other fisheries.

 

 

Very few of that year class survived to reach maturity, or to provide good sport for anglers.

 

 

A good few did for those that fished further off.

 

 

And CEFAS data shows the same patteren year on year.

 

Whenever cod have a reasonable spawning and year 1, or even year 2 codling are abundant, by year 4 those year classes are all but gone.

 

QUOTEThe international catch is mainly of 1- to 3-year-old cod.

 

http://www.cefas.co.uk/Fisheries/publicati...codnorthsea.pdf

 

 

Has it ever occured to you that once cod get over 3 or 4 years old they become a lot more difficult to catch with a trawl? I should imagine the 20 and 25 lb fish we were catching last spring were from that year.

 

 

Hopefully the cod recovery plan, the reduction in the fishing fleet, and effort not directly put on cod these days will change that cycle of destruction and allow a decent year class of cod to spawn itself and to begin to re-populate.

 

The danger being that effort on other species where cod is a significant bycatch will still do crioticaldamage

to any recovery prospects for cod.

 

 

The cod managed quite well during the 60 and 70 even the 80's with a hell of a lot more effort targeting them.

 

 

And no, the cod population in the warmer South West still shows no sign of heading north in response to global warming!

 

 

I agree, but due to so called global warming they are not too healthy, when the sea temps do drop to their likeing, as it did last spring and to a lesser digree the spring before, there seems to be an influx of cod from further north.

 

 

Hopes of big bass inshore based on the 2002/03 year class are also likely to be dashed due to the stock being trimmed at just 36cm.

 

 

The 76 year class didn't do to bad, there are a fraction of the boats fishing bass these days,plus they had an even smaller MLS, don't forget I'm only talking about the Thames or the south east coast, although I suspect the same applies for much of the country.

 

 

Proposals to protect those particular year classes to 45cm, when they would have also had the opportunity to spawn themselves have also been dashed and even after next April those fish will still be taken at just 4ocm, still short of when they will have had the opportunity to spawn.

 

 

I only wish we were as effective as you claim, I'd be a rich man.

 

 

(The catching sector is campaigning hard to overturn the change to a 40cm mls for bass, so even that meaningless protection is not assured)

 

Are they campaigning to over turn the gill net mesh size as well?

[wurzel]

All the bass that I helped catch on the Kentish Knock in 1994 were 1989 fish, most were 38cm to 45cm. We averaged 30 stone a day with my best day 65 stone (the boats best day was 150 stone).

So 35 stone of bass at 14lb to the stone and around 7 fish per stone, that 245 bass per day. That was probably about 3 days a week for about three months, as weather restricts fishing out there, itd ither to rough or two calm.

 

None of those fish will be able to reproduce themselves and are all less fish in our seas.

 

Wurzel I know you said you was leaving those fish alone to grow a bit bigger lets put it anouther way. At the time we was geting around 4.50 per pound, thats 65 quid a stone, thats 2205 quid per trip. You must be well ritch to turn that down mate.

 

So Sam were you being greedy or just after a good weeks work.

 

I doubt those fish were any where near 45 cm most would have been 36 to 38 cm, you were useing old 90 mm mullet nets .

[frankthebass]

Yep you are right it was 90 mil nets, most fish were 38cm but there was many 40 to 45cm fish.

 

At the time it seemed great I was earning loads of money compaired with most of my friends.

 

But at the time I only had me pecker to keep, no responsabilities and even though I was awear of concervation I didnt think what we were doing was wrong.

 

Now I see that it wasnt just us doing it there was other boats fishing the same mark.

It was also just one mark, there were boats doing the same at many marks all around the coast.

 

 

Sadly now I do regret those days of plenty as we did do our bit to help decimate the 1989 year class of bass.

 

The few 10 to 13lb bass that are caught now are the dregs of what are left from that magnificent year class of bass.

 

I still say you can not deny that any fish you land are less fish in the sea and are less fish that will reproduce them selves. Therefore if they were not caught there would be lots more biger bass now.